CSBWin3D extra features

[Rasmus]

I'm sure most of you already are familiar with my work on converting CSBWin to a 3D engine..
Otherwise here is a link to that topic
http://www.dungeon-master.com/forum/vie ... 46&t=28815

I have already added some extra features like:
- Party movements between tiles are and turning smoothly animated.
- Animated monster/item movements between tiles.
- Wall and door decorations can be animated.
- Beeing able to look down/up pits.
- Look around corners without acually walking around the corner. (It is like a half strafe to left or right)
- Weather effects like rain and cloudy skybox.
- Magic map, with all included spells like show monsters, anchor map, show false walls, show spells.
- Creating higher walls/roof.

Things I am going to add (is working on):
- Lightning added to the weather effect.
- Diffrent wallsets will have diffrent fog power (view distance).
- Game resolution will match the window resolution.
- Adding new objecttypes
- Adding diffrent general difficulties like Diablos Normal / Nightmare / Hell
- New soundengine with several channels and quality sound.
- Adding an unlimited amount of new floor/wall items (only the originals will be clickable).
- Giving items new special abilities. There will be a max at around 224 itemtypes. (the 'max value' may be changed later on)
- Enviormental effects like walking in water.
- Adding cutscenes or plotscreens.
- New monsters with new abilities. There will be a max at around 26 diffrent monstertypes. (the 'max value' may be changed later on)


So if anyone have suggestions on some extra features I would gladly implement them

[Gambit37]

I think you previously said that your 3D version only works with original dungeon files. Does this mean it's still limited to normal DM gameplay, or do you have any plans to offer extra customisation? For example, could we create new object types (tables, pillars, new monsters)

Could it support ambient sounds, or cutscenes/plotscreens, etc?

Could you enable support for normal and specular maps on walls and other dungeon furniture? That would be awesome! Of course, for it to make sense, you'd need support for dynamic light sources too... imagine a wall torch creating a pool of light that goes out when the party collects the torch, etc...

What about taller walls, to create outdoor buildings like castles?

View more than 3 tiles ahead?

I know these are all big features -- I'm just wondering if any of it's possible?

[Paul Stevens]

could we create new object types

Etc.....

You did this with CSBwin? Oh - My - GOD!

He did this with 16-bit ATARI code as a base.
I am too dazed to ask for anything else.
Imagine what he might have done with RTC if
the source had been available.

[Gambit37]

Well, exactly. I'm simply frustrated that I can't create the custom dungeon I envisaged with the current tools available (RTC or DSB). RTC has bugs and has stopped development and DSB is too complex for a non-programmer like me. So if another engine/editor could offer the toolset I'm looking for, I'd jump on it immediately. If any of the features I mentioned aren't possible, then they aren't possible -- but this thread was about asking for new features, so I'd be silly not to at least ask!

[linflas]

So if anyone have suggestions on some extra features I would gladly implement them

we must wake Zyx up ! quickly

[Rasmus]

@Gambit:
I can do almost everything with my editor, but map must originaly be made in CSBuild or simular.
It is hard to draw a line here, the easiest thing would be to say that I can do everything with CSBWin3D.. Because I can always do some walkarounds..

I can change the monsters hp, strength, items their holding etc... The same goes for changing item attributes..
I can add a more general difficulty like normal, nightmare, hell..
I can probably do replays..
New objecttypes can be added, but they will replace the old..
The magic map a created was made by creating a scroll in CSBuild with the text "MAP A". In that way my engine could identify it and use it. In this way new items could be added, but it ain't recommended..

So..
- I am going to change the soundengine so that we get some real good 32bit mp3 music and soundeffects that are using diffrent channels.
- Enableing cutscenes and plotscreen are also posible.
- Taller walls are already implemented.. Just raise the walls and roof in the current editor..
- View more than 3 tiles are going to be one of the settings when creating new wallsets.
- New objecttypes like pillars etc. are also something that can be done with the editor, just replacing a regular floorobject with a pillargraphic.. Ofcourse this rather compilcated right now and will be easier to insert later on..
- It would be able to create castle buildings, but it would requier alot out of the one editing.

- Specular maps and normal maps are something that will have to wait, this can be added, but I prefere waiting with it until I get everything else working..

[Paul Stevens]

DSB is too complex for a non-programmer like me

You keep saying this. But I don't believe it.

Under my other hat as (the only current) programmer for
the 'Dungeon Craft' (AD&D style) project, I implemented
a lot of scripting ability. People said the same thing....that
non-programmers could not do it. And they were certainly
right.....they could not do it. They had the strangest notions
about what it meant to assign a value to a variable or
how an if-else construct worked. But they persisted and now
they are contributing good stuff in the way of new spells
and such.

Sophia seems very patient and willing to help. I am surprised
that more folks have not taken advantage of her efforts.

[Gambit37]

@Paul: To be fair, it's not just a question of programming being too complex, it's also about ease of use of the available tools and about a visual mindset. And the limitations of the old-school engines not supporting higher-resolutions etc and larger viewports.

The discussions I had in this thread should give you some idea why programmer-designed tools often confound visual thinkers:
http://dungeon-master.com/forum/viewtop ... 53&t=28414

What RasMus is doing with his new renderer gives us a larger viewport and better quality high-res graphics. This interests me *a lot*. If he could then offer editing capabilities to rival that of DSB or RTC, it would clearly be a powerful engine and editor. Unfortunately, neither DSB nor RTC can quite cut it in the graphics department anymore, at least in regard to what I personally would like to design and build. If I could program the engine I wanted, I'd have done it years ago -- but I'm fundamentally an artist, not a programmer, and it's beyond me. So I have to compromise with the tools that are available; unfortunately it's simply the case that none of these tools quite do what I would like. I've discussed this elsewhere on the forum, no point going through it in detail again.

I also know Sophia would be very patient in helping people get to grips with DSB. But for the reasons already explained, I continue to struggle with that engine and toolset despite having tried to get to grips with it *many* times. It simply doesn't match my way of thinking and I'm too long in the tooth to try and match my thinking to the toolset.

@Rasmus: Some very cool stuff you mentioned there. I'm looking forward to the next version

[Paul Stevens]

DSB is here. It works very well. It is supported.
Someday someone will grasp it with both hands
and do for it what Zyx did for CSBwin....take
it beyond its initially intended capabilities.

I wish it had been available when Zyx started
his masterpiece.

[Gambit37]

I'm sure. But that someone won't be me. I just want to build a fun custom adventure without having to melt my brain in the process.

[Rasmus]

I will try not to make any brainmelting editor

I have often thought of the RTC editor to be a perfect editor for Dungeon Master, if one had played Dungoen Master before there was almost no learning curve. If I wanted to put some item on the floor somewhere it was just to rightclick at that tile and the rest was selfexpainatory. When I think of an editor I often think of it like a paintingprogram, I have my palette or tools on one side of the window and use these to paint my picture. I think the a dungeon editor should be the same. Mostly because its tiles are like pixels on an image. First choose your tool (walls, items, monsters) and then use the palette (wallset, itemtype, monstertype). Then after that one can always modify the monsters or items with extra attributes by rightclicking on them or simular. In this way the dungeon gets created in layers that gets more and more detailed. I am not very fond of going into detail with to many options from the start.

One other important thing is when starting programming the tools for the editor is to make the layout as dynamic as posible. I could always create a whole dungeon without using an editor, but that would accually take more time (or get worse result) to do than creating an editor and then the levels. As I have created a few DM games already I am understanding the importance of a editor more and more.. What I meant with dynamic layout is that I don't want the tools to be fixed anywhere. Almost any modern editing program (Word, Excel, Paintshop Pro, Visual Studio etc.) has the ability to move around the tools and put them whereever on the window posible, or just use shortcuts, and there is a reason for it to be like that, All those large companies knows what the wide audience want, even if it seems useless for one person.

I am not fond of any type of typing inside the editor, the reason I am creating an editor is to get away from all that tangent pushing. I want it all to be clear and that it woun't requier any studying to understand it.. Maybe not everything in the editor can be done in that way, but one should atleast be able to create a normal dungeon without having to ask "how can I do that?".

My editor will maybe not offer all these things mention above even if they are my goal. The reason is mostly because I am still in the learningprocess when it comes to making editors..
But I think my editor will offer one very large advantage, and that is the trial and error process. By running the game at the same time as the editor one can see what all the tools or edits are doing to the game in realtime. Just change the texture of a wall and you will not only change the texture in the editor but also in the game! This will save almost 50% of the editing time if not more.. I mean, how many times have one not added a texture or a object with a certain location and all its attributes, then save the map, then load the game, locate the object, and then just to see that it was something wrong and have to return to the editor just to redo the procedure..

Well, we will see how it goes, I have my vision of my perfect editor, and I want it to be as userfriendly as posible.. But I can be wrong.. Therefore it is also of great importance that anyone testing it to be as fierce as posible when reporting back. Otherwise I will never learn..

[Bit]

Just think abstract. After all you just got datatypes that you create/edit/delete. For placing them, you may have insert/add/append, copy and move. Now's just the interface how to achieve and visualize the datas. If you want to have this flexible, object-oriented programming requires a lot of thinking before you start. Start with a basic set of variables that can represent the datas and setup a common object like c_object as baseclass. Later you will be lucky to have that, because you can store all kind of datatypes in all kind of lists. There will be virtual functions like edit, that require different kind of editors/visualizers later, that maybe can be assigned dynamically. This can then be a simple textline (which could be a simple value or a complex instruction) or even a 3D-rectangle-selector.

Worst problem is to decide which GUI to use. Writing your own costs a lot of time and you'll be hardly satisfied ever, maybe it will be hard to keep it alive through new systems, compilers, whatever.
Choosing an existing one, will cost a lot of time to learn it, you'll miss functions, and if you get a new system or compiler or whatever, you're lost too...

[Rasmus]

I am using managed c++ and its forms, I have come to like c# more and more when it comes to creating programs. But since I don't want to mix c# and c++ I went for c++. I must say that I am alittle bit suppriced that the c++ form editor are as advanced as c# editor. Works really nicely, even if I have to work alittle bit to understand all the managed stuff..

Would like to write some more but I am way to tired right now.. But I can say that I have come a long way since the last screenshoot and things are starting to take form..