Playing CSB for the first time-Will need advice

[lord soth 75]

Thirst Quenched! Major battle with Vexirks! New Weapon!

Adventure Log#3

Man....That battle with the room full of vexirks was like pulling teeth.
Tried to lure them into the area where you cant use fireballs,but what happened then was i was ambushed by packs of Munchers that seemed to be constantly re-spawning.Whilst battling them,a vexirk would enter the room..and to my horror...started casting fireballs at me! WTF?? I thought magic wasnt allowed in this room?

I decided to cast poison gas into the vexirk lair,quickly followed by a fireball or two..then retreating to a safe area to rest.Rinsed and repeat.
Finally used a green magic box to freeze life,and ran into the lair to finish of the final few vexirks.

Eventually,i did it.
The reward...a fountain (at last!!!).The vexirks dropped a few items,most notably an Onyx Key and Magnifying glass and some Gold Coins.
Located a secret area in here,and it took me to the secret area from the dragons lair.
Up the stairs..and i encountered 4 Death Knights. (Which dont seem to be as powerful in CSB).My reward for destroying these things was an 'Executor Axe'

So,for the first time in hours my party are actually in quite good shape.All well fed,well watered,and fully clothed.
Only problem is.....I dont know whether i have done everything i have to do in this KU area.

-Area's discovered-
* Ant Men area-Cleared
*Giant Spiders area-cleared
*Skeleton staircase opened
*Vexirk lair-Cleared
*Muncher area-cleared (??)
*Area with many mummys-Cleared
*Dragons Lair-Cleared


I don't know where i have to use the Onyx key,and the Magnifying glass (Do i NEED to use them yet?)



@ Jan
Thanks for the tip about the fountain.

@ Ameena
The Munchers are definitely tougher than being killed by 1 fireball in this version im playing.What was most annoying about them was how i would be completely surrounded by them.This game is harsh.It wouldnt be so bad if they werent poisonous.

[Ameena]

You remember that post I made a while back with the list of stuff you need to do in order to finish the game? And you read enough to know you need a key from each section? Well, you

Spoiler

have the key from Ku

.
Mind you, you can bugger off and explore somewhere else any time you like, really...I mean, you have Ros, Dain, and Neta remaining, after all .

[lord soth 75]

@ Ameena
Is the Onyx key of any use? And,is it to be used in KU?
Or is it wiser to now just go back to the meeting of the ways,and try to find a 2nd Solid key?

Also.. just a few more queries. Sorry
1.Is it possible to get back to the games starting room from this level i am currently on? Because i have found 3 new coins,and want to open the area that i couldn't get to before.(Also,i want to go there to kill worms so that i can stock up on food)
2.Which area is best to tackle next? (If i have done everything there is to do in KU)
3.I made a few maps.Dragons lair.Mummy area,muncher and pits,vexirk lair,Knights area/w New Axe..But even though i mapped..I STILL dont know what level i am on,or whether levels exist in this dungeon.If dragon lair is lowest level,then what level is starting level ? and is the dungeon in reverse? Im confused by this

Thanks in advance.

[Paul Stevens]

Im confused by this

You are supposed to be confused. Unless someone
supplies hints (spoilers) you will be confused for a
very long time. But it is possible to map the entire
dungeon by hand and determine the structure and
order of the levels. The stairways are honest. They
take you one level up or down. The junction of the
ways is dishonest. You are far from discovering
its secret. You must first map the dungeon. Pretty
much all of it! Doing it by hand without help is
difficult but, if you succeed, you will have accomplished
more than most of us. I doubt that many have
succeeded.

Only one SOLID key. It is the KU key. The ONYX key
is an ordinary, non-essential key that MAY come in
handy much later. Again, it provide one of may ways
to proceed. Always there are many ways. Chaos.

[Jan]

Well done, Lord Soth! You're on a very good track, so keep going!

I think that answering all your questions would spoil the things too much for you so I'll give you just a few hints.

I don't know where i have to use the Onyx key

As PaulS said, it's a non-essential key and can be used in more places for some nice items. The nearest spot is

Spoiler

what you probably described as a "secret area from the dragons lair" (accessible through a wall in the Dragon's den or from the Vexirks' hall).

I dont know whether i have done everything i have to do in this KU area.

You did everything that was necessary from some perspective, yes, although you haven't revealed all its secrets. Finding a

Spoiler

Key of B

would be also very useful but it's not needed to finish the game.

I STILL dont know what level i am on,or whether levels exist in this dungeon.

Try mapping everything you can in the KU area and then try connecting the maps together. After some time it should start making some sense (in a chaotic way). Start from the only thing you know now - the Dragon's den is the lowest level.

and is the dungeon in reverse?

Spoiler

But if the Dragon's den is the lowest level, which one is the highest? Look at your maps again! Try to connect them together!

what level is starting level

It's not the most important question to ask.

EDIT: WARNING: IMHO the next post (or two) contain major spoilers. Although the most important information is hidden, it might be more than you want to know. Think carefully before reading it.

[Trantor]

A few hints about the general structure that may or may not help you find your way around:
The whole dungeon has

Spoiler

10

levels. The starting room and the Supplies for the Quick are on level

Spoiler

5

, and as Jan said, the battle with the Dragon took place on level

Spoiler

10

.
When you exit the Junction (no matter on which way), you can end up

Spoiler

in level 6, 8, or 9 - it's random.

Each of the four paths is

Spoiler

divided into two parts

. The

Spoiler

lower part

of each path contains

Spoiler

an important key - for KU, it's the Solid Key you already have found

. (You have basically finished the

Spoiler

lower part

of KU, by the way). The paths

Spoiler

meet again in a certain room in level 3. That certain room has an exit for each of the paths where you need to use the corresponding special key

.

About the dungeon being in reverse:

Spoiler

Yes, more or less. The topmost level is the one where you finish the game. However, you will usually go a lot between the levels. Unlike DM, where going down always meant progress, CSB is so non-linear that progress can't be measured by how many levels you go up and down.

As for you progress right now, you basically have two options:
1. Try a different path from the Junction.
2. Follow KU a while longer. If you want to do that, go

Spoiler

upstairs through the Antmen room. Look for illusionary walls

.

I'd recommend option 2. You will eventually end up in the

Spoiler

special room

I mentioned above. From there, you can find a way back to the start of the game and the Supplies for the Quick.

Good luck, it's really fun reading about your adventures!

[Ameena]

It's probably best not to think of CSB in terms of any kind of level order - you are gonna be jumping about all over the place, whether you like it (or even know it) or not, so it's probably better to think of the place in terms of which areas connect to which other areas, because each of the four Ways covers several levels by means of teleporters, pits, stairs, etc, and even link in to each other in places.
As mentioned, the Onyx key is useful, however it isn't essential. You'll probably end up with a whole load of keys you never use (especially iron ones) but don't worry about it - I normally end up the same way . Just make sure you get the four essential keys, one from each Way. Of course, you don't know what they are yet, but I don't want to spoil it for you .
Now, to answer your questions...
1 - Yes, you can get back to pretty much anywhere from pretty much anywhere else, if you know the route . You will end up back at the starting area/Supplies for the Quick at some point, if you wander around enough. The dungeon is, as the name implies, chaotic - eventually, after enough blundering about, you'll suddenly find yourself in a place you recognise .
2 - Well, I always do Ku first, 'cause I find it the easiest (Dragons are probably my favourite mob to fight as they're so easy to kill via the step-dance/Fireballs ). I would say possibly Neta is the second-easiest, though actually I can only really remember one area of it off the top of my head, likewise Ros. Either way, I think everyone agrees that Dain is the hardest, so it may be an idea to leave that one till last. Bear in mind that since Neta is the symbol of the Priest, I think this means that you may be able to find at least one

Spoiler

flask

along that Way, though I can't remember how many or where .
3 - I think I covered that at the start of this post, plus everyone else has pretty much said the same thing - the dungeon is chaotic. You could try mapping it, but personally I find it easier to just kind of muddle about and end up learning the way by means of linking areas together in my head. DM was basically Easy Mode - a nice, linear dungeon, where going downstairs was always the way forward in the game (except for at the end when you need to backtrack to use your keys at Level 7 and grab the Firestaff). CSB is kind of the opposite - there are stairs and all kinds of shit all over the place, and you just kind of aimlessly wander around and eventually figure stuff out, or don't actually figure it out but still manage to get somewhere anyway .
If it helps, I think the only items you need to finish the game (besides the four

Spoiler

corbums

, which you get right near the end), are basically

Spoiler

different types of key

- nothing else is essential, that I can remember, though of course, various things do come in useful .

[Jan]

With all the respect I wonder whether you, Trantor, haven't revealed too much in your post - more than Lord Soth wanted to know. I know that you've hidden the most important information in spoilers, but Lord's temptation might just be too strong.

I don't know. I don't know how much Lord Soth wants us to tell him about the layout of the dungeon. So I put a warning in my previous post - I hope you don't mind. I might be totally wrong of course.

[lord soth 75]

Vexirk on steroids/Dancing with Mummys/Cross of Neta.

Adventure Log#4

From my save point,i went back to the Junction way and took the way of 'Neta' (I was here the other day i recall,when i killed some screamers)

Got involved in a battle with an uber Vexirk.Seriously..this little freak seemed to have the Hit points of a dragon (Along with the usual overpowered RTC fireballs)
Spent about an hour trying to beat this little bastard,but it was to no avail.Everytime i see him,he transports behind me and destroys my party with fireballs.
Pulling my hair out in anger,i took a new approach and decided to use the Horn of fear.
It worked!! The little guy who didn't seem too bothered about being blasted in the face by top level fireballs,was suddenly running scared of the noise from the horn.
When the little freak finally did keel over and die,i was rewarded with a Cloak and a key.
Used the key to open an area that was previously bricked up,and entered a new area in which i had to fight those damn Muncher things again.

I should note that the exploits in the above paragraph took about 2 hours,because i was trying to create maps of the area.unsuccessfully.

Found an area with many doors and pressure plates,but nothing happened when i stood on them.Fell down pits..a few times in here too,but i had already saved my game prior (to save me the bother of replaying through the horrors of the munchers again).
Mummies were spawning here near the stairs,and by accident i noticed that they triggered a switch when they stood on the pressure plates.What followed was a bizarre half hour of frustration in which i had to scare the mummies into the doors so that they would stand on a pressure plate.What made it so annoying was the fact that these mummies had seemingly zero hit points.
I had a torrid time trying to get the 4th mummy to go into the 4th door/pressure pad.If i used war cry he would run in the opposite direction i needed him to go in.

Eventually,with all 4 mummies trapped...a door opened into a new area with pits and a fountain.
I located a secret area in the mummy room by hitting a switch and i located a new weapon called 'Cross of Neta'.

Saved my game at this point.

-Inventory Notes-
*Somebody mentioned 'Key of B' a few days back.I checked my inventory before i saved,and i have 2 keys of B (Haven't found a door/s to use them on yet though)
*Onyx Key is still in my inventory.
*Does the cloak i obtained from the steroid vexirk have any significance?,or is it just a regular item of clothing?


* Thanks for all the hints and tips so far guys.They are greatly appreciated .My attempts at mapping this dungeon are quite chaotic (mainly because of falling down pits).Im having fun exploring this game,but i do fear that the spellcasters and fireballs in general are (just as they were in RTC DM)going to be the cause of even more frustration tbh.The Vexirk room yesterday/The lone vexirk tonight.Both situations Vs Spellcasters=Extreme frustration because of over powered spells.

[Jan]

Very very well done! You seem to progress very fast!

When the little freak finally did keel over and die,i was rewarded with a Cloak and a key.
Used the key to open an area that was previously bricked up,

If you have the opportunity, you might like to go back there and explore the whole area a little bit more. Read the hint from the Hint Oracle about the "Vexing Vexirk" very carefully, especially the last sentence. You might be rewarded with a useful item - not necessary for finishing the game, but very helpful in a certain stage.

i have 2 keys of B

Very well, so far you found all that you could.

Haven't found a door/s to use them on yet though

All in good time. Just keep them secret. Keep them safe.

Does the cloak i obtained from the steroid vexirk have any significance?

Not really.

[Ameena]

Well, sounds like you're doing alright so far . Yeah, that bit with the Mummies can be a bit frustrating, but at least you're not really in any immediate danger of dying (unless you fall down too many pits) . I seem to recall there's a fountain around there somewhere, too...though excuse my bad memory if there isn't .

[Jan]

I seem to recall there's a fountain around there somewhere, too...

You're absolutely right. And perhaps that water fountain might not be the only thing that's interesting in that seemingly empty and dull corridor leading from the mummies' cells.

[lord soth 75]

Path of ROS/Knights and Rock pile royal rumble/Food supply discovered

Adventure Log#5

From my last saving point,i discovered a large room with a key and a scroll flying through the air.Now....Im assuming that the key i have found here (I believe its a Turqoise key) is the key for this level (As Solid key was in Ku)

With the key discovered,i set off back to the junction of ways to begin a new path.

ROS
Chose this as my new quest.Found an area with many pits and blue mists,but decided to open the door instead.
What followed was an epic battle with an army of Rock pile creatures,and Death Knights.Obliterated the rock creatures by bombarding them with top level Poison cloud spells ,the knights put up more of a challenge but for the most part i was able to defeat them with melee attacks (Tiggy and Mophus chipped in with the odd fireball every so often)
Found a secret area that led to a set of stairs leading down.Saved my game,and went down.What i found here pleased me hugely.A never ending food source.The twisting tunnels i had found was infested by the Hybrid worms.
Spent a good hour or so here chopping through the worms and stocking up on food.

Saved the game here.

@ Jan
Thanks for the hint about the mummy area secret on Neta.I found a firebomb potion in an invisible wall (If that is what you were pointing me in the direction of

[Paul Stevens]

I found a firebomb potion in an invisible wall

One never knows what one will find in that place.

[lord soth 75]

One never knows what one will find in that place.

Does that hint mean that i didn't find everything that was there?
I'll go back and look again next time i play.

There should have been a spell in this game that gifts the 'limited' ability to see pits and false walls (Or the rope should let you go up and down pits).
Im finding progress really time consuming because of those invisible pits.They are an absolute nuisance.
Im so glad that i have found this worm area though.Food has been very scarce up until this point,and it saves me the bother of trying to find a way back to the games starting level.

Oh...i forgot to mention in my earlier Adventure Log,i found another Onyx key whilst battling against the Death Knights at the beginning of ROS.

Question about Keys
I keep finding Iron keys (Got about 8 of them at moment) Do i need to keep these keys? Because Mophus (The key carrier) is running out of inventory space.
I also have 2 or 3 Golden keys.2 Keys of B.2 Onyx Keys. A Solid Key (KU).A Turqouise Key (Neta).
My instinct whilst playing DM was to keep everything that i found.

Potions
Im also getting inundated with the Poison potions and the firebomb potions.Is it wise to keep these items? or should i just use them so they are gone from inventory?

Thanks in advance

[Paul Stevens]

Iron keys are not too valuable.
Gold keys are not too valuable.
Potions and bombs are not too valuable.

I always stash these things at my 'Home Base'.
They remain there forever.

All other keys have various value. From
'Handy Sometimes' to "Necessary". Not
even the four "Ways' keys (KU, Neta, Ros, Dain)
are all necessary!!!!

If you lose a 'Handy' key, there is always
another way. Have I said this before?

Always another way. That is signature
of Chaos Strikes Back. If you watch the
record-breaking movies, you will see that
seventy-percent of the dungeon is
never visited.

[Jan]

@ Jan Thanks for the hint about the mummy area secret on Neta.I found a firebomb potion in an invisible wall (If that is what you were pointing me in the direction of

Partly this and partly something else, even more obvious.

I keep finding Iron keys (Got about 8 of them at moment)

It's useful to carry about two or four of them and leave the rest in the Base, as Paul said. However, you don't seem to have discovered the Base yet. It doesn't really matter, of course.

I also have 2 or 3 Golden keys

Not necessary but may become useful later.

2 Keys of B

Keep them and look for others in locations similar to those in which you found these two.

2 Onyx Keys.

You've just missed another opportunity to use one of them. But you can still come back easily.

Anyway, you've made a good progress again. I wonder where you'll go next. The creatures you've encountered recently should give you a hint on your position in the dungeon.

[beowuuf]

Been too busy to comment on this, plus there's been good advice flying around. Just to point out though, the junction of the ways is a perfect base - you have five squares of space to place all your stuff on, and the junction is somewhere you can always come back to. Hint: If you get to the lowest levels (like where you fought the dragon), check the walls...you might find short cuts back...


I don't think it's tooo spoilery to point out that in CSB, you start in the middle of the dungeon. Random placement might make it hard to track, but while you go up/down from the junction to get the key of each path, what you are looking for is the Diabolic Demon Director a few levels above, where you can solve for each path, find the keyhole, and progress to the second part of the path.

And since you might not have read the backstory, what you are looking for on each path is the corbum pillar, a side accessable from the end of each way. That's on the second highest level. And on the highest level of the dungeon is the FUL YA pit, the destination for those corbums. Destroy the four corbums, win the game!

[Ameena]

Remember that "invisible" pots aren't actually invisible - you can see a faint dotted line deliminating the edges of the pit. You have to look carefully for them . False walls I tend to find by walking around bashing my head into everything. However, I think you can click the walls with your hand to "knock" on them, and if it doesn't make a noise then the wall is false. Or there's the "See Through Walls" spell, the runes for which I really can't remember off the top of my head as it's one of the many spells I don't use .
I can't add much more about keys that hasn't already been said - you usually end up with about a million iron keys and lots of gold ones. They may come in useful but on the whole you probably won't need half of them. I would advise hanging onto any other keys, though. Just in case .
There is plenty of food to be had in Ros, don't worry about that - you just need to find the right area, that's all .
Ful/Ven Bomb thingys aren't vital - they're basically just a free cast of Fireball/Poison Cloud. You chuck 'em at stuff and they explode, basically (either pick up with cursor and throw manually, or equip in a character's hand and use the "Throw" attack).
As mentioned, the Junction of the Ways is a good place to use as a base - you can just leave all your random crap there and navigate back to it later if you find you need it for something .
Incidentally, the majority of Wuffy's post is the same as I put in all those zillions of spoiler tags back on the last page, telling you the basics of what you need to do to finish the game. I would suggest getting the unique key from each Way before you go through the DDD, just so you don't have to backtrack. As Paul-S says, however, there are multiple ways to do pretty much everything in CSB - if you get stuck one way, there'll be another one somewhere else .

[Jan]

the junction of the ways is a perfect base

the Junction of the Ways is a good place to use as a base

I guess you both mean the "To the JoW" area (bellow the

Spoiler

Supplies for the Quick

area), not the JoW itself? I mean you don't pile your belongings on the Junction, do you?

Incidentally, the majority of Wuffy's post is the same as I put in all those zillions of spoiler tags back on the last page, telling you the basics of what you need to do to finish the game.

Yes, I had the same thing in my mind but didn't dare to mention it in order to avoid me or Trantor being banned from the forums again.

[Ameena]

I did mean the actual Junction, yes, because you go back there loads of times in the game . That said, I don't tend to bother with a dumping ground myself, since I don't tend to hang on to too much stuff.

[Jan]

I've never thought of that. I've always used the place

Spoiler

between the fountain and the teleporter "To the JoW"

as my base.

I always sort my things on individual squares on keys, food, weapons, bombs and other stuff and then never get them back and use them so at the end of the game there's enough items to equip a whole army brigade and supply them with food for a month.

[Trantor]

Heh, I never use a base at all.

Keep the keys. You will run across several locks for them sooner or later anyway. Most are just for some minor treasure or small shortcuts.

I'd advise keeping 2-3 Ful and Ven bombs for places with tough monsters. But you can easily finish the game without them. They just make fights a bit easier.

[beowuuf]

As Ameena says, you turn around and the walls open, so you have places for your stuff, and you can always return there from a variety of places. Also, a place to stash your stuff is mandatory on a solo run, unless you are doing insane Antman/PaulH style runs!

[Ameena]

If you know what you're doing, you don't need a stash - at least, I manage without one, and I duo the game . But yeah, if it's your first time, you're probably gonna want somewhere to put all the extra bits you come across. Besides the essentials (eg food, water, flasks), I'd say keys are probably about the only thing you really need to lug around. Other stuff is useful (like the Ful Bombs, etc), but there'll never be a time where you come to a certain point and go "Damn! I wish I hadn't left that bloody rabbit's foot all the way back at the Junction!" .

[Paul Stevens]

but there'll never be a time where you come to a certain point and go "Damn! I wish I hadn't left that bloody rabbit's foot all the way back at the Junction!"

Well, "Never" might be a bit of an exaggeration.
I've said it more than once. A Boulder comes to
mind, for example.

[lord soth 75]

Fireballs.Scorpions.STUCK!!!

Adventure Log#6

Started off quite well tonight,but ended in frustration.

Ran into some of those giggling thieves quite early on,but wiped them out with high level fireballs.One of the thieves dropped an item i am quite curious about.A set of Lock picks (I persume i can use these instead of regular keys?)
Found a secret area with many mummys after removing a torch from a wall,but i then fell down a pit that had opened behind me.So i had to play through the gigglers section again.The torch was a trap that opened the pit behind me.Found a Samurai Sword somewhere around here.

Used the 'Brandish' option with the Cross of Neta to scare the mummies,and then chopped through em all clearing the room so i had access to some stairs.
Encountered an area with some of the Scorpions from DM,and i used the fireball firing device to destroy them by stepping on the pressure plate.
Found a green gem in the wall and upon removing it,it seemed to set of a trap where fireballs were being fired around the corridors and reflected by the blue mist's.Got blasted by a fireball,but managed to get to safety and healed up.
Found a set of stairs again leading up.....and here is where things took a turn for the worse.

An area with many false walls,and to my horror...Red Dragons that are hidden behind these walls.These things were attacking before i could do anything about it.Tried to find out just WHAT I am supposed to be doing in this area for a good hour and a half,but the result was always the same...I would get roasted by fireballs from these damn invisible Dragons.
I honestly dont know what to do here.I haven't found a key yet,so im assuming that i must have to kill these dragons in order to move through this area safely.

Very frustrating.


Base
It never actually dawned on me to use a 'base' or a safe area in this game.But i guess the starting point of the Junction is an ideal place to leave the 4 treasure chests full of food i'v been lugging around.Thanks to the Worm spawning tunnel i found yesterday my party will never be in a situation where they are starving.Whenever i need water,what i have been doing is going back to KU and climbing down the pit in the 'No Fireballs' room with the Munchers,and it leads to an area with a fountain.

[Paul Stevens]

to an area with a fountain.

That is everybody's 'Home Base'.

Those Dragons don't move about. Go up
stairs, find one, destroy it. You will never
again collect Worm Rounds. Rest. Find the
next Dragon. Destroy it. A couple of fireballs
will suffice. Rest. etc. They
don't regenerate. Watch out for teleporters
that turn you lest you get confused. You did bring
the Compass from the starting area, right? Really
quite simple if you don't panic. Unless RTC
makes the Dragons more dangerous than they
were in the original.

[lord soth 75]

Unless RTC
makes the Dragons more dangerous than they
were in the original.

I think any creature that can cast spells in RTC is much stronger than in the original versions of Dungeon Master/csb.1 fireball from these dragons is devastating.I also had terrible problems with the Beholders,Vexirks,and Spell Vines on RTC DM.And the Vexirks in THIS game have been a nightmare to deal with.
These Dragons are attacking me before i even see them,and more often than not they manage to kill at least 1 member of my party before i can do anything.
I was trying to make a little map of this maze by bumping into walls,but it always ends with a dragon killing me.
I did discover an opened area in this maze with pits everywhere and Dragons standing on the other side of the pits.
Damn..this is difficult.

[Trantor]

Don't worry about the open area with the pits yet. That is the easier part of this huge room as you can at least see the dragons there. Kill the ones in the invisible walls first.

Cast Ful Bro Neta (Fireshield) to protect yourself against the dragons. Casting it multiple times will ensure better protection. The dragons don't have many hitpoints, for dragons at least. Take them out one at a time.
This is a good place to use magic boxes as well as Ful and Ven bombs. Also, mapping this area is a VERY good idea, as you need to explore the room thoroughly.

You have accomplished much already! Don't give up!