What do you like/dislike about DM2 compared to original DM?

[Chaos-Shaman]

they could have done a lot more with DM2. the shops were barely useful, there was no real need for currency. it was slapped together poorly. the mapping was decent and they could have done better, but that also didn't or wasn't needed much.

[Bit]

The problem is: how to add game elements that people want to have, but keep the (mathematical) balance of the game.
You could play DM2 easily without using the shops at all. If there should be a real advantage using them, you'd have to make it practically impossible to play without them.
That's level design then, you can't blame the programmers for that.
I played Elder Scrolls Oblivion lately - and in the end I really disliked the given ways to build your own spells and items and load them with spells and the complex alchemy to make potions. One gets lost in that, especially when you finally have a hundred weak spells in an endless list to pick from. Don't want to discuss this game here, but it is a simple example how complexity can spoil the fun. Same with Masters of Orion. Edition 2 was real fun. MoO 3 not anymore. Think this is for a lot of games.

I liked the shops, because at this time we were used to them, having played Might & Magic and other ones.
But whatever modern game you take - they all run into the critical question, how to satisfy the players - because there are very different ones...

[Hexcon]

This may be considered an almost heretical statement, but I admit I like Dungeon Master 2 as much as Dungeon Master 1, if not more. I still think that due to the designers' and producers' decision to change some of the (even basic) elements and to keep only the main concept of the game, these two games cannot be compared as apples to apples.

For people trying to improve the games it might be of quite some interest to find out what people liked and disliked about them. Maybe even Dungeon Master 2 will be turned into a great fan creation some day, surpassing the original in quality and replayability.

[Bit]

There are still some people pretty busy to get DM2 under control, and for this each post in this thread is still important.

[Hexcon]

That's what I was trying to say. Forming sentences in a language other than your native language sometimes is like attempting to create realistic pictures with fuse beads while at the same time being almost totally colorblind.

I think you said that you'd use the information gathered here to improve the original Dungeon Master 2, and you've asked users to save their games at "critical points". What points would that be exactly?

[Bit]

There's so much to do that I can hardly test, so I use a savegame close to the beginning and close to the end.
That includes all basic operations, like handling items, animation steps, battling, spellcasting - but hardly includes all of the actuator mechanics. I could easily give coords to the party, but that wouldn't be very realistic. A really played game with snapshots at the beginning of levels or before different actuator types would be helpful for that reason.
Even couldn't give coords, because that's a very long time ago that i actually played it.
Makes no sense to upload wip-versions for others to test, because I have dozens of them per day.
That all is not urgent now, but it makes sense that people collect savegames to be tested when it's time for it.
As well as suggestions for later ideas.
I'm glad that Sphenx also works out compatibilities and differences to the DM/CSB-engine, because in the end it would be better if we could gather all the stuff as add-on for DSB and don't have more development-branches.

[Chaos-Shaman]

That all is not urgent now, but it makes sense that people collect savegames to be tested when it's time for it.

so are you looking for the save games only??? there must be plenty out there... when i played DM2 on the PC, it wasn't too hard. took 4 days to complete i believe, it was who could finish it the fastest back then. it's been years and i think i got the original disc still. so if i played it again and saved often, is this what you need Bit?

[Bit]

Sure, just plain savegames from an original run - of the DM2-PC-version.
Maybe there will be version-dependent differences, but those are of interest too.
Playing the english version that is available in the pedia in DOSbox generates good savegames as well - so, whoever gives it a try again, I'll be thankful.

[Hexcon]

I've played the game like seven or eight times during the last two years (always losing interest when entering the strange dimension because I never wanted the game to end ). There should be lots of savegames on my PC and laptop, if you think you might need them I'll send them to you. Can't really say if they were created at critical points, though.

[Gambit37]

Wow, DM2 is one of Notch's favourite games!
http://notch.net/about/

(Notch created Minecraft)

[Huan]

Well, replaying and finishing all 3 original games after awhile, and losing nostalgia factor for DM1 (or at least having the same nostalgia for DM2 as DM1), and having no more weird expectation that it should be more, I can say with certainty that for me, DM2 is better than DM1.
The difficulty is harder, but not to the point of CSB. I especially appreciate that most puzzles have more than 1 way to be solved. DM1 puzzles are more basic, while CSB is way too hard without a walkthrough.
I really appreciate the shops, and that you have something to use all the items you can find in the game for, as well as the new interface. The half-step is annoying, but it didn't matter anymore after 30 minutes of gameplay.
And of course, more variety on the maps and weather (rain and lightning at least) are a good bonus too.
I wasn't bothered by the technology addition (too used to it from other games, I guess).
What I didn't like was that to compensate for a shorter game, they raised the monster generation rate and Experience modifier, although Attack Minions are less annoying than in my memories (1-3 Berzerk, which you can get before meeting them, are enough to kill them until the last levels).
Too bad that there are no fan-made maps for DM2.
Now to play fan-made maps for DM1 and clones. Does anyone have any suggestion for the best ones out there?
(I know where to find them).

[Ameena]

Hehe that's cool about Notch (I play Minecraft). I wonder if he played the original DM as well, or just DM2.

[oh_brother]

Nice. I don't remember hearing anyway put DM2 as their favorite game, not even on this forum.

@Huan there is a list of custom dungeons here and here, with some reviews here. You can follow links to get some feedback

[Sphenx]

Too bad that there are no fan-made maps for DM2.

It's a matter of time .. and there are efforts to extend DM2 global size.

[Trantor]

@Huan:
For CSBWin, I recommend Towers of Chaos.
For RTC, I recommend Surgical Strike (requires a specific version of RTC, I think it's 0.37 or 0.38) or Sukumvit's Labyrinth. I'd like to point out Doom Blade as well, but since that is my creation, I can't objectively compare it to the works of others.
For DSB, there are few options, but Unintentioned Heroism is pretty good (and extremely funny).

Then, there are the two big ones: Conflux III for CSBWin and Tower of Champions for RTC. Both are gigantic and very hard, harder than CSB, so they might not be what you are looking for. Both are great if the difficulty doesn't put you off.

[JETENGINE]

My favourite of the entire DM series is Legend of Skullkeep. I try to do certain 'challenges' to make the game more replayable, such as:

• Use only Torham and one of the ladies.
  Use only starting armour (or less) (shields not included as armour) for a two character team for the duration of the entire game. (Not yet done).
  Use only starting weapons (Not yet done).
  Use only matching sets of items.
  Kill all non-respawning monsters! (Including merchant guards but not the merchants.) (Not yet done)

Anyways, I hope to get to bed soon, it's 06:20 (6:20 AM) in my timezone right now, and I have been up for than twelve hours. Good morning, all.
Jay

[Sera]

Im surprised ive only just seen this now! I shall throw in my opinion.

LIKES
+ Outdoor/Cave Areas (it was a nice addition rather than just grey walls throughout the entire game)
+ Dual Wield (being able to use both hands to fight instead of one)
+ Shops (i personally never had a problem with these other than if the list of items were long)
+ Weather (especially when the lightning got so severe, which jump-scared me a few times in the past)
+ Music (added more atmosphere to the game)
+ Mob AI (love how they try to dodge fireballs, those rhino-like creatures went berserk if you hit them with one XD)

DISLIKES
- Minions (hate how they can go right through you, too many of them and the constant respawning, all annoying)
- Halfstep (while it can be negated by wearing mithril hosen, i didnt like it)
- Minions
- Zo Portals (would have been nice if they could be closed permanently)
- Minions
- Torham (i dont like being forced with a starting character, keep it like the original DM and CSB)
- Minions
- Story (too short and too easy)
- Minions
- PC Version (too cartoony for my liking)
- Minions
- Dru-Tan (amiga version scared the hell out of me in my younger days, this was the only reason why i liked the PC version better XD)
- Minions (... i think you get the idea how much i hate these now >_>)

[Chaos-Shaman]

Sera
I have a question, probably something silly but I need to know

What is - Halfstep (while it can be negated by wearing mithril hosen, i didnt like it)? I can't remember what this is.

[Ameena]

I think it's where when you move forward, you don't instantly ping into the next square (as in DM/CSB) but rather shift visibly forward with a brief pause at the halfway point.

[Chaos-Shaman]

thanks Ameena
So you are saying it is a pause before moving but appear to have moved, like being injured?

[Ameena]

No, you start gliding forward but momentarily hesitate at the halfway point, like you're taking two steps to get there, rather than just "teleporting" like in original DM/CSB.

[hana35]

LIKES

Weather(Rain,thunder)
Creatures Ai(Avoid attacks, AI evolved compared to DM)
Unique Creatures(Dru Tan Vexirk Giggler)
Use both hands(The battle became more complicated)
Shop(Money system)
Minions(It is the biggest feature, DM2 is Minions game)
Item(Lots of kinds,rechargeable,Teleport) Meteor Blade:流星剣
Spell(Reflection,push,pull)
Story(Various secret items,There is a way to beat monsters)
Music(The best masterpiece on DM series)
Map(Magic maps, it helps a lot)

DISLIKES

Too difficult (AMIGA version of DM2) PC version is DM2 for children
Dragoth is too strong

Theron's Quest is the most difficult as the complexity of the dungeon
Nexus is the most difficult procurement food and water
DM series The strongest enemy is Dragoth

[Kundelstein]

Hi guys, welcome. My first post here:

LIKES:
- weather effects, rain, puddles, lighting
- light
- dual welding
- varied enemies with their personalities: howling wolves, thieves, and such
- pushing - pulling tables, though implementation wasn't the best
- outdoor areas


DISLIKES:
- torches recharging after mounting on the wall
- the way items are chosen in the store
- that the "town" didn't feel like it at all
- no NPC's - I'm not a purist and I expected from DM2 some interaction with other characters (shopkeeper doesn't count)
- the game area was just too small and crammed
- having already defined party member
- lack of story driven gameplay (like it was done in EOB, LOL and even Ishar) - again, not a purist

Basically before RTC really took off I had even day dreamed and created lots of notes in a paper notepad about a DM2 like game , except much, much larger. Sadly, it won't see the light of day, at best i started a book based on the ideas that has a tiny chance of being seen one day.

Did you get your book finished? I would love to have a chance to read it. I remember writing in some notebook all my ideas about "how I would do it better". Half of it was just naive thinking as I didn't realize various game design consequences (I was young). The other half was just not possible with the available technology at the time.

[Ameena]

Did you ever play Stonekeep? PC game from something like 1994 (give or take a year). That had a clear story and a bunch of NPCs you could meet, many of which were potential party members (though you as a player didn't really get to choose whether they joined or not - if they asked and you had space, they'd be added to your party). There weren't any outdoor areas, it was 100% a dungeon crawl like DM/CSB, but there was a town/settlement or two with non-hostile (unless you attacked them) NPCs and perhaps a merchant or two.

Oh, also, welcome to the forum .

[beowuuf]

Basically before RTC really took off I had even day dreamed and created lots of notes in a paper notepad about a DM2 like game , except much, much larger. Sadly, it won't see the light of day, at best i started a book based on the ideas that has a tiny chance of being seen one day.

Did you get your book finished? I would love to have a chance to read it. I remember writing in some notebook all my ideas about "how I would do it better". Half of it was just naive thinking as I didn't realize various game design consequences (I was young). The other half was just not possible with the available technology at the time.

Nah, it never expanded beyond the concept stage sadly. Probably still have the notepads and computer files buried deep in some dark corners I guess!

[Ameena]

Omg Wuffy! I haven't seen you here in aaaages! :O

[Kundelstein]

Hi Ameena, hello beowuuf!

Did you ever play Stonekeep?

Hahaha! I remember the game from the old days, but as a die-hard Amiga fan I didn't have a PC and could check it out only at a friend's place.

Obviously, I was jealous of FMVs and smooth animation. I liked the story and all "being like in a movie" thing. There were however some things I hated, for example, enemies were placed in some strange places on the grid. the interface was a mess. I also remember that it had a vibe of more like the adventure game instead of what I back then considered RPG.

The biggest problem with grid-based RPG's is that if you try to make it full screen, you have to remove all this fun of stuffing things inside of your backpack. I don't know how I would do such game today: UI overlay on the screen or smaller "action view" window.

To keep the topic, I think that the UI is the biggest improvement in DM2. Opened chests were in the right panel instead of full screen panel. I really liked that. For me maybe it would be even better if they removed the hand icons from the top bar and just left them on the right, with using by right click in EOB style. But as it is now if I'm not mistaken, you can play the game with just left mouse button.

[Ameena]

Stonekeep didn't so much have "stuffing things into your backpack" as "stuffing them into your magic scroll that turned items into pictures until you wanted to use them" . I quite liked how the magic system worked, with you finding runestaves and needing to carve the runes on them - the rune for the spell you wante to cast (eg Firebolt), plus your choice of various other "meta runes" that would alter the spell, making it more powerful or whatever. I'm not too sure what you mean about enemies being in "strange places on the grid" - monster layout was basically the same as in DM/CSB/DM2, just with smoother animations due to the more advanced nature of the technology or whatever.

[Mayo]

I was going to wait until i beat the game to leave my thought on this game but after playing the game for about a week i decided I'm not even going to continue to try to beat the game any longer. I just dont care to continue.Now that i found dosbox and Hatari i found way better games to play that this hot mess. It just feels i just need to farm longer to build my characters up to deal with the never ending minions coming at me and nah im tired of farming the big steak dogs whatever they are called.

I just dont like it its just way too bad to care to beat this..Sorry but this game is terrible. I can't believe they even released this.

Dislikes (this will be a long list)
-the entire interface the janky ass spells and 2 handed combat feels completely messed up and almost not playable the spells are much harder to switch between.
-the new mini map thing. It just adds to the janky ass feel of the spells combat in general, since it eats up that exact same space and must rotate between it during combat.
- Vorpal blade/ swords ninja skills... i mean whats the point?
- respawns you hardly even have time to make a potion before a new monster is hitting you.
- minions see above specifically once you get high enough in Castle skulldeep. They just repsawn every 2 minutes it seems. its not even fun. Just here they come agian... no place to even sleep.
- the new dodge your fireballs and make you waste more spells.. meanwhile its hard enough to have enough mana in this game with the never ending respawns and minions but lets throw in absolutely stupid dodges and half steps to make it worse.
- The giggler area with the blue rain... i had to farm for 2 days to get my warriors high enough damage to just kill him. Just a dps check level that was stupid and annoying. I leveld them up to master just to beat him.
- How people on this forum call this game easy. There was literally nothing easy about it IMO. It was just frustrating grindfest, that was unpleasant and not fun from the start.
- How you throw your water into the fountain to get water and must reclick to get it back... why such a stupid change.
- The graphics were terrible and too dark and hard on my eyes. Outdoors was super bad the rain made it virtually impossible to see anything and just to get randomly hit by lightning for no reason was also a stupid touch.
- The enemies were generally to easy (early game) or too hard (due to re spawning volume mainly, high up in skull deep). no in between it seemed.
- The design of the levels seemed extremely lazy and almost no puzzles that were any good.
- why even allow us to get rid of the blue portals that were everywhen with KO when they repsawn in 30 seconds anyways. There was no point.
- More "speed' running puzzles. which i never liked in CSB. Never Liked having to dump gear on the floor to finish something because i like to carry ample food and water just gets annoying.
- ALL outdoor graphics were terrible garbage DM/ CSB had much better monsters graphics and those game were 7? years older is embarrassing.
- All, the monsters looked like stupid cartoons.
- The money system just added to the frustration of the game.
- Tables. I get the idea was good, but were they really required or used properly no.
- Did i mention minions and their never ending spawn rate.
- No safe spot just to heal up in CSD. Had to keep running back and lock myself in a room just to get my mana back.
- embarrassed FTL even released this.
- 6? shops why. They all could have been in 1 building.
- Why could you sell gear to shops for so much. Go farm axes and buy all the gear.
- Why did i require to get stuck with the first guy in the game all the other DM games i could choose my entire team but not this game you were require to have the starting guy because why. I didnt like his face.
- that you could essentially buy all the gear by farming axes.
- The whole design felt rushed
- Hardly any good puzzles.
- Felt like someone trying to duplicate DM but fell directly on their face
- Mini map would just give away all the secret walls/ areas with a click of a button .. then whats the point?
- Food and water is just too easy to get. Steaks and water for everyone forever is boring.I think i have 1000 steaks on the ground.
- This game just turned into a DPS/grindfest.
- Minions can open doors so you can't even have a place to rest up unless your in a keyed room.
- Worse DM version ever made by FTL hands down.
- Background "music" I like the idea but the choices of songs were terrible and within a few days turned it all off completely.
- The way the shop were implemented Why 6 shops? Why the one shop by itself? Why buy crap gear (like axes) for so much?
-ADDED- The change to viewing contents of chests. - In orginal DM you could use your eye to look inside chests or place them in your hand and they would open. DM2 the eye does nothing...DM2 you would place the chest in your hand nothing would happen.. You would need to place it in your hand then go to the clunky UI and click on the chest in the UI to open it. Essentially adding an additional step to view contents of a chest. Adding to the clunky-ness UI i was talking about earlier.

Add the wallet and a few gold coins on the ground and your fumbling around trying to put them in your wallet and a minion hits your from behind to half step into you so you miss with your fireball. .. then your unsure who has a fireball made so your clicking all over the screen looking for someone with a prebuilt fireball... sigh the UI was the killer for me. Just felt chaotic and not fun.

Liked.(short list)
- Background music , but just not the choices they made of background music.
- I like the idea of the shop but was implemented poorly.
- The new castle walls and floor tiles the wall with the hidden rock (with button behind it nice)
- The stats and all that from DM.
- When i decided i was not going to force myself to "beat" the game and instead quit and play something fun because it was just that bad.
- That i never knew or played this game when i was younger because wow I loved DM and CSB im glad i didnt ruin my love of those games by finding this POS.

Added - I liked that you can keep keys unlike the originals (minus skeleton key) , but it was basically pointless minus the master key so it was irrelevant.

Sorry for anyone that like this but I'm moving on from this stinker and most likely will not be returning to it again worst FTL game I ever played.

[Ser Xav]

I know what you mean. DM / CSB was a classic, almost like a religion to us as kids, DM2 by comparison seemed like a ‘fake’, we couldn’t understand how it was the sequel. We still played it a lot, and it had its own charm of sorts, but it didn't hold a candle against the original masterpiece.