Help Wanted

[Wizard Zedd]

Not quite sure what level I am on but I am in a very large room with fireballs continuously flying around, pits, transporters and lots of creatures - green ghost-like guys, mummies, skeletons and some little guy that sounds like he is laughing at me I found a button that seems to have turned off the fireballs (at least for the moment) and found a chest with a skeleton key which doesn't open a door that I have found - I thought a skeleton key would open any door?? Anyway struggling fighting off everything and trying to find whatever key it is I need to open this door...any tips for this level? On a positive note, I haven't seen one Beholder on this level...yet

[terkio]

The usual chore.
Find the keys, finds the locks that fit. Skeleton keys, only open skeleton locks.
Use magic, barehanded; The theives ( gigglers, the laughing creatures ) only go at handed items.
Use fireshields. When used to the place, leaving the fireballs hurling all over is a way to keep the place clean from gigglers, mummies and skeletons.

[Wizard Zedd]

Thanks terkio. I have had some extra time on my hands today and did manage to find a key that opened the door. I had to chase down the thief that stole one of my weapons - but other than that I seem to have survived Not sure if I got everything in that room, but it appears that I can continue on. I guess if I get stuck somewhere else needing an item I will need to venture back here to look for it.

[Ameena]

You're on Level Eight. Monsters there are Skellies, Ghosts (Mummies too, I think?), and, as you've discovered, Thieves. I seem to recall you're playing RTC in which case I think Thieves will steal from either hand (in the original only your left hand was at risk). If you do lose an item to a Thief, they will keep hold of it and probably try sneaking up on you later to try and yoink something else - it's useful to have a Fireball or similar offensive spell ready to cast in case you see one running toward you (or hear him laughing from behind).
You'll recognise a lock for the Skeleton Key when you see it. For more information on the use of that particular type of key -

Spoiler

Every level from here downwards (except for one) has a Skeleton Key hidden somewhere, and a Skeleton Lock in which to use it. These open up the Central Stairwell, a handy shortcut to nip back to previous levels, at least as far as Level Eight (where you are now). As there is one Skeleton Key too few (I think this was probably an accident), I suggest not bothering to open the lock on Level Twelve because that place is horrible and once you have one particular, very important item (which should be obvious once you have it), you'll have no further need to go back there.

One thing I like finding on Level Eight is the Delta Blade, one of the three swords in the game which has a Thrust attack (the other two are the rapier, which is on a previous level, and the best one, which you haven't got to yet), my personal favourite melée attack type due to its decent damage and quick recovery time.
Level Eight isn't so bad. It's even better if you can shut off the Fireballs (by

Spoiler

pressing a button on the north wall somewhere...or maybe you use the key that's hidden on the floor in the large main room, I forget

) .

[terkio]

"Stoping the fireballs".

Spoiler

Actualy, you do not stop the shooter.
There is a button nearby that removes a teleporter. Once removed, the fireballs are not deflected anymore to go on, all over the room, then fireballs crash onto a wall.

[Phoenix]

For those of us who follow the DM Encyclopedia, you are on level 7. The shutoff pad for the fireball shooter is located at the south of the level, near the Delta that Ameena previously mentioned. You won't see the "beholders" again until level 9.

[Ameena]

If you're counting the HoC as zero (and thus the big-open-room level as Seven), the next Beholder level is Level Nine. It's Ten if you count HoC as One, which I do.

[Wizard Zedd]

Thanks everyone! I did move on from there & unfortunately did not get the Delta blade that Ameena mentioned Is it worth going back for?

I am now on what I would call the "rat" level as I have run into some huge sized rats. Fortunately I have been able to deal with them...at least so far

Thanks again!!

[Phoenix]

Good for you. I've concidered the Hall of Champions level G, for ground ever since I made my own DM maps. ChristopheF conciders it level 0. The Encyclopedia has been up since 1999, and it's typically the first hit in any Google search on DM. Both CSBuild and ESB concider the top level of any dungeon as level 0. It comes down to this, my notes on the game are level specific to this standard. When someone asks a question that I'm trying to help with and they mention a level, I consult my notes on that level. If they start talking about creatures or places that don't exist on that level it causes, at least for me, confusion. You can personally call it what you want, but I'm always going to reference things this way regardless of your choice.

As for the Delta, it has a base damage of 50, so it's a tad better than an axe (49) and the other weapons you've currently come across. I usually stick with the axe until I pick up the Hardcleave on level 9, but that's just me.

[oh_brother]

Delta blade is good, but not essential by any means. There are other weapons around, including two swords that I think are better. Though one of those comes very late.

[Ameena]

I like Delta Blade for the aforementioned fast-but-with-good-damage Thrust attack. Things like axes are nice, but I find them a bit slow.
With regard to level numbering, I get similarly confused when people refer to the "wrong" level numbers in relation to what I call them - some of us count the HoC as Zero, some as One. My hint book (scans of which are on the Encyclopaedia, actually, complete with blue highlighter all over most of the maps where my dad was trying to make sure he visited every square in the game ) lists HoC as One, so that's what I go by. Several of the mob names I got from there as well.
Anyway, Level Nine (or Eight ) is indeed the one with the Rats...they're not so bad, unless you get surrounded/cornered or something. And in the event that you're low on food at that stage, they're very useful for that as well (second-best food source in the game) . There's a handy little area near the end of the level which a lot of people tend to use as storage space/a safe spot to return for a rest and stuff later on, when needed .

[Wizard Zedd]

Ok...well I think I will avoid going back as I did find that level rather difficult. I will keep my eye out for the Hardcleave

I am battling more Beholders - but finding them much easier than when I first ran into them & those pesky thieves. Will keep you guys posted and will no doubt be needing your help again.

Thanks everyone!

[Wizard Zedd]

And I thought the Beholders were bad...these new creatures are pretty tough & they shoot fireballs and poison at me & no hiding in a closed room cause they come in and get me while I am sleeping Hopefully there aren't too many of them or this level may take me a very long time! I know this isn't a question....just wanted to give you an update

[Ameena]

What do they look like? It sounds like you're up against

Spoiler

Spell Vines

on Level

Spoiler

Twelve

. Yeah...that one's a pain in the arse . I never go back there once I've got what I need from it.
Did you figure out the whole Skeleton Key thing, btw? I put a spoilered section a few posts back explaining it if you need more info .

[Wizard Zedd]

I guess they look like vines - they have a ball or an orb for a head and they fade in and out. Just ran into knights - they are pretty tough and it seems that fireballs don't have much affect, if any. Just re-read your post about the skeleton keys - thank you

[Phoenix]

They're called materializers, and they are non-material beings like ghosts, black flames, and water elementals. As such, they can only be harmed by vorpal blades and the Des Ew spell. There are also several wands that have a "dispell" action, but they actually cast Des Ew. You've discovered that non-material beings can go through closed doors. Ghosts and materializers can also float above open pits.

Animated Armors are technically immune to spells, but if you have a lot of patience, time, and mana, it's possible to use the impact damage from a lightening bolt to "beat" one to death. It's far easier and quicker to use weapons on them. The diamond edge and hardcleave have nice bonuses against them.

[oh_brother]

Yeah, also the vines/materialisers have to be fully visible when you hit them with des ew, otherwise it goes right through them. That, or cast when they are up against a wall.

And as for Animated Armours - I used think they were impossible, because I relied heavily on spells. The same with stone golems. Terrified me. Then I realized that you just have to physically beat them.

[Ameena]

I call them Spell Vines and Knights (or Death Knights, or Black Knights, or similar). I never heard Spell Vines called Materalisers till I came to this forum (Spell Vines is the name my hint book gives them) but my name for them is much quicker to say . They are possibly one of the most annoying mobs in the game...well, all the caster mobs are annoying, because they cast spells at you . The Knights, at least, aren't so bad if you can get them behind a door, around a corner, or into a spot where you can do the two-step dance (provided it's just one square's worth of them rather than two or more separate groups/individuals). Then just batter them to death with weapons - as mentioned above, spells are almost useless, though I seem to recall reading at some point in the past that the Lightning Bolt spell has a physical component to its damage and can harm those kind of mobs at least a bit. There is a third species of mob on Level Twelve, which I call

Spoiler

Giant Spiders

but many other people call

Spoiler

Oitus

. True, they're not really

Spoiler

spiders

because they don't have nearly enough

Spoiler

legs (and if you look carefully, each pair of legs actually seems to connect into one foot, so they have four legs but two feet, which is weird

, but again, I have my hint book to blame for that name. I even still call the flying blob things on Level Five "Flying Screamers" even though wtf.
Anyway, one other thing about Level Twelve is that there are two very special

Spoiler

corners

on that level. They don't look any different from any other

Spoiler

corners

, but are special because

Spoiler

mobs can't pass them, so you can hide and keep leaping out to attack them while they just mill about uselessly and/or get bored and wander off

.
There are only

Spoiler

two

things you need on Level Twelve -

Spoiler

the last Ra key and the Master Key

. Once you have those things, you can leave the level and never come back to it (especially if you skip using the last Skeleton Key here like I mentioned above) .

[Phoenix]

The problem with the hint books is that there are several of them, and they were produced by third parties. I think there may be one published by FTL, but I'm not sure. The names that I've mentioned are listed in some of them.
The beholders are listed in some of them as wizard eyes, probably to avoid issues with TSR. They even changed the graphics for them in CSB. CSB also has deth knights which are like animated armors except they have horns on their helmets until you kill them. As for the oitus, it's not a spider without eight legs. The ghosts always reminded me of the anti-mater creatures of Dr Who's Planet of Evil. CSB is more explicit about creature names via the hint oracle and the editors.

Materializers act all tough at first, but as soon as you kill one or two of them in a group they tend to run away. Cast a couple of firesheilds, and they can only harm you with their posion cloud attack. The more advanced your party is, the easier things tend to be.

I've personally killed animated armors using the impact damage from lightning in the custom dungeon Black Flame. The animated armor was behind a pit, so I experimented. It does take many many bolts, but they do die. It really is easier to fight them with weapons since it advances your fighter skill, and you do gain experience just from being hit.

[Wizard Zedd]

WOW - What a lot of great information...thanks! I have been calling the "Giant Spiders" or "Oitus" Giant Ants...LOL

I have been okay fighting the Knights (at least so far) as they are rather slow. The Spell Vines or Materializers are another story - they have been troubling me, so thanks for the tips on dealing with them. No Stone Golems yet...something to look forward to I guess.

[Wizard Zedd]

I have made it quite far now - even with having to go back up a few levels to get food

I just beat the huge dragon & ran into some devil looking beasts and then who I can only assume is Lord Chaos himself. Needless to say instant death! This level appears to be very difficult - which I guess is to be expected Wish me luck...

Oh, and if you have any tips you'd care to share on this level - I am all ears. Of course without spoiling anything

[Nymeriaa]

Reading this thread scares me lol things are going to get so hard it seems!

I have a question not about anything specific on any level at the moment (although there was a room with 4 buttons in the wall I couldn't figure out and had to skip...) But anyway, my question is actually about the armour in the game. With my current experience with games I sort of expect armour to change the stats of my characters, but from what I can tell nothing I find seems to do anything except weigh me down!

Can anyone shed light on this and how I know if I pick up a better piece of gear or not? Is there even a point to wearing most of the gear.. I'm confused So far I have found one necklace that provides a bit of extra mana and I think another necklace that seems to provide light... as for everything else, I'm lost!

[Phoenix]

Lord Chaos is immortal, you cannot kill him. You need to obtain and complete the Firestaff. The scrolls in the Tomb of the Firestaff outline the means to defeat him. The best tip for that level is to clean out the demons, and then have the three champions (assuming you have a party of 4) not holding the firestaff to repeatedly cast fireshield.

Nymeriaa,

As far as armour goes in DM, shields are useless. There are really only about four pieces of "armour" that change stats: elven boots increase your carrying capacity, Gothmog's cloak of night adds +8 to dexterity, flamebain adds +12 to anti-fire, and the crown of Nerra adds +10 to wisdom. In general the deeper you go into the dungeon the better the armour, so the normal progression is cloth -> leather -> mail -> plate. That being said, Halk is just about the only champion that can wear full plate without being loaded down. Some armour and weapons are cursed, so it's wise to examine them before wearing or using them. Better armour reduces damage, and that's about it. I usually have my champions use flamebain, the poleyn of light and the dark and light helms, but the rest will usually be in mail. I rarely bother with the plate, as you pointed out it's just too heavy. Elven boots are the second weakest foot protection, but the carrying capacity gain ofsets the need for protection at least for me.

[Ameena]

Wizard Zedd - Lord Chaos is pretty recognisable - grey-cloaked figure with a horned helm and red glowing eyes. So I imagine if you think you've found him, then you probably have . To defeat him, you need a certain object - you can't just kick his arse with swords and stuff like you have been all the other monsters you've come across. So, two things - do you remember coming across a level where you really couldn't do anything much except pick up a scroll on the floor and continue down to the next level? Do you remember what was blocking your access to the rest of that level? So you have anything in your inventory now which you think might help with that?
If those vague questions aren't enough, here are some more specific facts...
You need to have obtained [/spoiler]three Ra keys[/spoiler] and

Spoiler

the Master Key

.
You need to go back to

Spoiler

Level Seven (the one above the big-open-area-full-of-undead level)

, aka

Spoiler

"The Tomb of the Firestaff"

.
You need to use

Spoiler

the three Ra keys to let you through the first three doors at the entrance to the level

, then head around the corridors. You will find some other doors (opened by other keys) but those aren't essential...though you may want to get the

Spoiler

Inquisitor

, a very nice

Spoiler

sword, with the best Thrust attack in the game - the upgrade to the Delta Blade

, which is guarded by a couple of

Spoiler

Stone Giants

behind button-operated doors. You will unfortunately have to

Spoiler

kill them in order to get at the sword, which lies in an alcove at the end of that corridor

.
There are a bunch of

Spoiler

scrolls lying around in alcoves

in one section, which will give you some hints about

Spoiler

how to complete the game

.
You may come across dead ends containing

Spoiler

Stone Giants

, but don't worry about this - they

Spoiler

won't activate until you pick up the Firestaff

.
In the

Spoiler

middle of the level

you will find a door [/spoiler]with a black keyhole - this is where you use the Master Key[/spoiler].
Inside you will find

Spoiler

the Firestaff

. As noted a few steps above,

Spoiler

picking it up will activate the Stone Giants, enabling them to start chasing you, but they are the slowest mobs in the game so unless you take about ten minutes to run along the corridor don't worry about 'em

.
That done, you need to go back down to

Spoiler

Level Fourteen (where you fought the Dragon)

and obtain the

Spoiler

Power Gem

. How to do so is suggested in one of the

Spoiler

scrolls you may have read back on Level Seven

, but in case you missed it or something, what you need to do is

Spoiler

cast Zo Kath Ra (you can just do a Lo-level version), which creates a hand-held ball of plasma-stuff. Then click that on the tree-root-looking-things holding the Gem

.
This will enable you to click

Spoiler

the Firestaff on the revealed gem, unlocking its full powers

.
It's worth noting that the

Spoiler

ungemmed Firestaff

gives +1 Wizard level to the wielder (while equipped), while the

Spoiler

gemmed version

grants +2.
You will notice that the

Spoiler

now-gemmed Firestaff

has three attacks -

Spoiler

Invoke, Fluxcage, and Fuse

.
The first of these three

Spoiler

casts a random spell (I think Fireball, Poison Cloud, and Harm Non-Material Being are the possibilities, but it's been a while since I played)

.
The second

Spoiler

creates a Fluxcage in the square in front of you - it won't harm anything that steps into it, but Lord Chaos will actively try to avoid standing in a square which contains one

.
The third

Spoiler

will attempt to fuse four Fluxcages together, if you have cast them in the squares adjacent to an empty square and then step back from the empty square into one of the squares containing a cage

.
I won't go any further than that, since that should be enough for you to gather what you need to do .

Nym - Yeah, armour is pretty rubbish. I don't really even tend to bother with any of the plate armour because it's so heavy. A few of the necklaces (like the Pendant Feral and the Moonstone) have visible effects, but generally the "weak" armour seems just as good as the "strong" armour. I never bother with shields - my characters keep an empty flask in their off-hands and I have them make potions as and when I need them (so I never need more than two flasks, one for each character, one of whom starts with a flask anyway) .

[Wizard Zedd]

Thanks Everyone. Wish I had not used the plate armour on a couple of my characters as it is weighing me down

I do have the scrolls that tell me about the firestaff and I do have it at full power. I am just having trouble getting into the room with all that is going on without getting killed. I will keep trying - this should be tough but fun

[Ameena]

I normally manage to just park myself in a corner around to the left from where I enter the room. Something I discovered on the forum some years ago (but have never tried myself) is that you don't need four empty tiles for the Fluxcage - you can use actual walls as well, it's only empty floor spaces which need Fluxcaging (so you could do it in a corner and only need two Fluxcages).

[Chaos-Shaman]

don't be afraid Wizz, go in there and start flux caging every square, you'll nail em. don't bother saving, it'll only eat up the food stores. the game is just about finish. you can always go back to the start and exit the entrance door, just for fun

[Ameena]

Not once you've gemmed up the Firestaff, you can't - the stairs (including the Central Stairwell) seal themselves off once you walk away from the root-looking thingys that held the Power Gem. You can only return to the surface with the ungemmed Firestaff.

[Phoenix]

It is possible to return to the surface with the completed firestaff. I can't recommend it, but it can be done.

[Ameena]

Oh, I thought that had been fixed at some point during one of RTC's later updates. Yeah, you could throw the gemmed Firestaff over the triggering square so that the stairs wouldn't seal - I think it got changed so that the Firestaff set off the trigger even if it wasn't in the party's inventory, though.