[Greenlight] The Fall of the Dungeon Guardians

[manutoo]

Hello,



this is a follow up of these 2 topics :
- http://www.dungeon-master.com/forum/vie ... 71&t=29794 [Dungeon Breaker : Alpha version !]
- http://www.dungeon-master.com/forum/vie ... 71&t=29904 [Help me name my game ! ( + nice screenshots)]

so I'm an Indie developer, and my new game is a Dungeon Crawler named The Fall of the Dungeon Guardians.

It's in First Person View, inspired by classics like Dungeon Master and Might & Magic, but featuring a modern combat system based on the triptych “tank/damage dealer/healer” mechanism.

The game is (nearly) done so I put it in Greenlight and it'd be very kind of you to vote for it to help me get it on Steam..!

Here's the Greenlight page => http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/f ... =489556661 .

[Chaos-Shaman]

Hey, I am happy to know you're still going at it. It looks great. Have you done much since I last tested it out? Keep plugging at it.

[Jan]

Oh, these things are becoming quite popular, aren't they? These graphics look superb! So good luck with the development!

[Beardedmike]

This looks awesome, maybe I will review it on my channel

[Gambit37]

Looks very nice indeed, very visually similar to Legend of Grimrock (which is no bad thing ). Good luck with it.

[manutoo]

Chaos-Shaman,
I knew you ought to be the 1st one to reply in that topic !
So as you can see, the game is nearly finished ; everything should be done within 1 month.

Jan & Beardedmike & Gambit37,
thanks !

[Sophia]

A small moderation note-- please continue to use this topic (or your main one) to post further updates on your game's status, rather than starting any more new ones.
Good luck on your project.

[Anna Bury]

Nice work, manutoo, the game looks really promising!

I see you have the same problem as my dev team (we're working on a dungeon crawler too): people complainig about the game being a Grimrock clone I personally find these accusations funny, but I was a bit disappointed when I saw Juho from Almost Human asking you to credit their game as your inspiration just because of mossy dungeon walls. Uncool, if you ask me.

[Gambit37]

This idea of crediting inspiration to a prior game that itself was inspired by an older game is.... tricky.

Let's ignore for a moment the fact that all these games are descendents of DM, EOB, etc, and instead let's look at the problem of the new clones being visually similar to Grimrock.

There is a very valid point to be made about the visual similarities between The Fall of the Dungeon Guardians and Legend of Grimrock. Setting aside the details of different models/size/shape/colour saturation, the tone/atmosphere of the wall/environment graphics of TFOTDG are almost exactly the same as those of Grimrock. No disrespect to Manutoo, but I don't think you can be objective about this.

I can completely understand why Almost Human might feel that it's a little too close to LoG for comfort. At a quick glance, the two could easily be mistaken: the mossy walls feel exactly the same, and the caves with blue crystals feel exactly the same as those in LoG2. Almost Human might have a case to make regarding "confusion in the marketplace" which is often used when disputing copyright/trademark claims.

Therefore, I don't think there is anything wrong with Almost Human asking for an "inspiration" credit. They could easily have said "Your walls are the same as ours: please change them.", but they didn't. Instead they are simply asking for some recognition... which personally I think is OK. However, Manutoo is not obligated to do so.

Skullstone on the other hand, while still clearly inspired by LoG and earlier dungeon crawls, has a different look-and-feel and does not at first glance look exactly like Grimrock. Yes, it has brown/sandy walls with green moss on them, but the style is quite different from Grimrock and I think there is less chance of confusion between the two.

Personally if I were making a dungeon-crawler, I would be very careful to make sure my environments DON'T look like other games already out there... there are so many wonderful ways of being inventive and original with your environments, I do find it a bit weird that you'd both decide to make your games look the same or similar to an existing, market-leading game. Perhaps changing your environment styles to something more unique would help them stand out better and avoid the confusion that is clearly already happening...

Where possible, you should always strive to be unique. It's what will set you apart.

[manutoo]

Sophia,
thanks & understood : Greenlit & Steam release announcements will come into this topic (if they ever happen) !

Anna Bury,
thanks for your support ! Yup, nowadays, it seems than anyone doing a FPV grid movement dungeon crawler will be flagged as a "Grimrock" clone...

Gambit37,
I'm going to quote myself (from the blog's post here http://www.managames.com/DungeonGuardia ... -grimrock/ ) :
"Then I set up everything and put all pieces together in the game, and here : “oh jeez!”. It felt similar to Grimrock."

So I'm not surprised at all people complains about that similar feeling. I was the 1st one who it happened to !
But my point is once in game, it feels different enough to not make any mistake between the 2. Of course, on a still screenshot, especially not in fullscreen, then the confusion might be too high, but in-game, which is the only place that matters for me (I'm a game creator, not a marketer), it's alright for me. If people buying the game complains after have played it, I'll be more annoyed.

But as it is now, as I just wrote to Anna Bury, anyone doing a FPV grid-base dungeon crawler will be called a plagiarist to Grimrock, whatever they do (just check Dungeon Kingdom and its vastly different wall set, they still get the annoying comments). So at least, I did exactly what I wanted : get a mossy stone wall set because I liked that style when I saw it in Grimrock. It could have been another game, a movie or anything else, the result would have been more or less the same.

About Skullstone, I'm sorry but I'm going to take the risk to hurt their authors' feelings (if you read this, guys, please be brave and don't take it too badly ! ).

So Skullstone doesn't look different, it looks less good. If they raise their rendering quality and then do the only logical choice when you have green moss which is to make the wall reddish (red is the complementary color of green, every else will have less visual impact), then they'll get : "boohoo, you copied Grimrock" (and they're probably already getting it anyway ).
So the choice, when doing a mossy stone wall set, is not between looking like Grimrock or being different, but between looking like Grimrock or looking less good. You have to remove the stones, or the moss, or the square base, if you want a chance to escape the "you copied Grimrock" crowd...

I don't care too much if my game sells a lot or not. It's the game I wanted to make, I'm very happy how it plays & look, I don't feel I'm playing Grimrock when I'm in it. If some other people feel not happy when they see my game, they're welcome to play another one, we're crowded by games anyway, so it's not the choice that is lacking !

Funnily, I have the exact same nature of problem with my tennis game, most people not playing it complain about the poor visual. The people playing it, don't, and enjoy the gameplay.

PS: I even don't talk about the blue crystals in the cavern, if Grimrock has the copyright on that, dozen of other AAA RPG games might have a word to say about it ! Plus it was done before LoG2 was released, so...

[manutoo]

Oops, I forgot 1 important point in my looooooog speech..!

maybe it could be possible to be different from Grimrock while still having stones, moss & grid, but I guess that the art director, the concept artist and the 3D environment artist able to pull that are not in reach of my wallet, by a couple of zeros...

[manutoo]

Thanks to everybody who voted, the game got Greenlit in 1 week !

You can buy the game from here : http://www.managames.com/DungeonGuardians/buy-the-game/

Or wait a few weeks to buy it on Steam.

I just created a 2nd gameplay video to show what the game looks like when using the Active Pause, which is the usual thing to do when playing the game :
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xr3eBVw9YvM

[Gambit37]

Congrats on getting it Greenlit! That's a major achievement, well done

Could you explain a bit more about Active Pause? I don't really understand what's going on in that video -- there's a lot of controls, and you seem to switch between pause/real-time with no penalties. This feature could do with a bit of explanation... EDIT: Ah, never mind I read about it on your website

[manutoo]

Gambit37,
thanks !

What do you think about the Active Pause ? Is it something that you want to try ? Or push you away from the game ? Or neutral ?

[Igor Poulpupov]

Looks great!
The Active Pause system makes me think of Baldur's Gate. And the items we can see at the end of the video look like they've been randomly generated in game. Do you have a random items generator similar to Diablo's or Sacred's? (and maybe some sort of random monsters generator as well?)
Both of these are things I'd like to try in a dungeon crawler.

[manutoo]

Igor Poulpupov,
thanks !

Yes, the loot is semi-random, which means it's not the same from one run to another, but it always can be used by at least 1 member of your party (more or less ). I think Diablo is 100% random, so it's not exactly same.

[cowsmanaut]

Considering that Legend of Grimrock started as "Dungeon master 2000" many years ago and had mutant screamers, we have all the discussions still here on the forum as it later evolved and became what it is now. I find it interesting to see that complaint form one of it's creators, especially since I need to go to wikipedia and other sources to hear about it's influence. This is in part, I think, the reason so many call others "Grimrock clones" as opposed to "DM clones".. because people don't bother looking that far.. much the same as covers done by musicians, and remakes of movies.. the new generation thinks these things are actually new.. only made worse when the cover artist goes after someone as if it was their own unique invention. This only incites the wrath of their own followers.. I think Juho should say sorry for that comment.

Visually, I could point to a hundred games with a similar look.. many of which began their life before Grimrock. Beige walls with green moss on them.. wow.. I've never seen that before.. oh wait..


I could spend an hour bringing up all the stuff that looks like this already.. or worse.. go into every Grimrock level and pull up several images which could be sited as inspiration from walls to creatures, even within the same genre.. Don't get me wrong.. they did a good job, but it's far from original..

I mean seriously.. the ego behind that statement is absurd.. "you should credit us as your inspiration.. " how about "The look, and hell the entire game Grimrock, is based on other games, and has almost ZERO originality behind it.. so don't worry about it"

just makes me angry.. it's great that Grimrock succeeded as a game and gained a strong following.. but guys.. don't let it go to your head.. jeeze..

[Jan]

@Cows: That's too sensible! Go stand in the corner!

[Gambit37]

@Cows: Almost Human didn't want to claim credit for the game design; they simply wanted an acknowledgement that the wall sets in Dungeon Guardians looks almost exactly like those in Grimrock.

All the other games that spun-off from DM made the effort to have their environments look different from DMs grey walls. So while all those games (EOB, Hired Guns, Lands of Lore or whatever) owed their game design to DM, their visual aesthetic were all quite different. I understand Manutoo's point that it's the game he wanted to play and has the look that he wanted, but I still maintain it's a bit odd to almost exactly clone the look of another game when there are so many different ways that it could have been visually realised.

Anyway, I'm sorry I derailed this thread a bit. Back on topic, I'm not a big fan of things like Active Pause. What I liked about DM and all those games is that they are real-time. Pausing to set-up your attacks makes it more like a turn based game, which I've personally never liked or been interested in. So Dungeon Guardians is probably not the game for me... but I'm sure many others would enjoy it.

[manutoo]

cowsmanaut,
I'm not sure why, but I like the points you exposed..!

Gambit37,
you can lower the difficulty and play without autopause if pausing the game isn't your thing, like I'm playing in the 1st gameplay video..!



Oh, and version 1.0 is done & out !
Now, let's take care of making the game available on Steam..!


(note: this is test zone screenshot, not the official dungeon)

[cowsmanaut]

Gambit, I'm aware that ONE environment set looks similar to Grimrocks ONE level.. The unfortunate truth of our world is that we have diminishing returns on original looks, especially when many are using the same core engines (and even then other engines render the same) as well as working form the same resources for texture, and the same tools and default brushes. Then add to this the idea that there are only so many ways to make something appealing, as well as easy to read so that spells and monsters don't get lost in the background. When it comes down to it too, both games are working on the same core of influences, EOB, DM, and so on.. exposing their inital works in the same forum with the same community.. how can one not expect similarities, even drastic ones, to occur at some point.

As a consumer, we should be happy when someone releases something of similar quality to other beloved games and not judge them unless there is some kind of actual theft going on.

I think considering the limitations on funding and team, and the genre etc.. it's turning out pretty well I hope you guys get plenty of positivie attention

[manutoo]

Steam & Mac versions available !



if you buy the game from Mana Games now ( here : http://www.managames.com/DungeonGuardians/buy-the-game/ ), you'll get :
- a free Steam Key to activate & play the game in your Steam library
- the Windows & Mac OSX version from ManaGames.com

Note: the OSX version will come a bit later on Steam

[Chaos-Shaman]

Manutoo, I will be buying the dungeon crawler as a present for Christmas. When I read that you make it more for fun than a money project, you touch the part of me that understands how rewarding it can be to do something for fun, unobstructed from the pressures of money. This is impressive when you have that much passion, very attractive.

Do not worry about the similar looks, a dungeon has walls, floors and a ceiling, to me they are all the same, but am interested in the programming, and from what I have experienced so far you've changed things up. If I could, would be helping you as much as I can in that area.

I like the active pause, reminds me of Might and Magic.

Keep having fun.

[manutoo]

Chaos-Shaman,
thanks, I hope you'll enjoy the game !


@Everybody,
game will be released on Steam on November 6th.

And here the 1st Rogue Specialization that is already available in the game :

[PetriH]

Hey, the next time you "quote" Juho please quote the full message. The way you are doing it is not cool and he does not deserve people speaking bad things about him behind his back.

Below is the full message Juho posted on the Steam forums. Note that his comments are purely personal. As he is the author of the wallsets in Grimrock, he naturally has a stronger view on this than other AH guy. Almost Human is not demanding any credits in your game (we really don't care), and that was clearly not Juho's point if you read his full message.

Juho:
"As one of the creators of Legend of Grimrock, I'm a bit disappointed with your game's certain visual similarities with Grimrock. I don't think you stole our models or textures like some other comments say, but they're pretty damn similar to ours. Why have the trouble of recreating the textures when you could've done unique wall sets of your own? I mean, the game looks pretty fine and all, so I'm sure you could've come up with something more personal. At least credit Grimrock as your inspiration in the description "

I also gave you reasons on the Grimrock forums why differentiating from existing products is a wise thing to do. I don't repeat myself here, but those interested can read my thoughts here:
http://www.grimrock.net/forum/viewtopic ... 61#p101440

We have tried to be very open and helpful towards other indie developers and for example allow other developers to market their games on our forums. Are we allowed to ask the same kind of treatment in return?

[manutoo]

PetriH,
it would seem I'm the "you" in your message, as you say "your game", but there's a little problem : I didn't talk at all about Juho in this topic...
So maybe you'd like to rephrase what you wrote...
Wild guess : you read cowsmanaut's comment and thought he was part of Dungeon Guardians' Team..?

[PetriH]

You're right. Apologies about that! For some reason when I read the thread last night I misread who was writing what. Now I see that it wasn't you who started talking about Juho in the first place (nor did you say anything). Anyway, to be clear: Juho and Almost Human are not demanding any credits in your game, and we have not anything against you or your project. It just made me sad when people are attacking Juho who does not, in my opinion, deserve it.

Once again apologies and good luck with the release!

[PetriH]

You're right. Apologies about that! For some reason when I read the thread last night I misread who was writing what. Now I see that it wasn't you who started talking about Juho in the first place (nor did you say anything). Anyway, to be clear: Juho and Almost Human are not demanding any credits in your game, and we have not anything against you or your project. It just made me sad when people are attacking Juho who does not, in my opinion, deserve it.

Once again apologies and good luck with the release!

[PetriH]

I don't know what the heck happened with the double reply... this is clearly not my day.

[manutoo]

PetriH,
thanks !