Four Character Archmaster Party

[Paul Stevens]

For whatever part I played in this misunderstanding, I apologize.

[Royou]

For whatever part I played in this misunderstanding, I apologize.

Thank you Paul that really does mean a lot to me, thank you I also apologize for any offence I have caused any and all members.

[Paul Stevens]

Great. Now, at the risk of being thought nasty again........

Back to the title of this thread. When I saw four archmasters in
four skills I was rather impressed. When you told us how you did it
I thought to myself "Hmmmmm...how did he do that". A few possibilities
came to mind:

1) He is crazy. Nobody could sit there that long doing the same thing
over and over. (Please do not take offense. I don't mean 'insane' crazy.
Just 'crazy' as in "Crazy over you" or "Crazy about pepperoni pizza". Everyone
in this forum is 'crazy' in that way. Some more than others. I have spent thousands
of hours fiddling with CSBwin; Then along comes Christophe to surpass me in
the 'crazy' race!)
2) He cheated. Fiddled with the save game using a hex editor or something.
3) He somehow automated the process. Turned his Raspberry Pi into a
keyboard and wrote a clever program to do the training while he slept.
4) The version of Dungeon Master he is using makes it easier to gain levels.
Perhaps the level multipliers are implemented differently.

When I saw a couple obvious differences from the original, number 4) became
my primary theory. And, when you said that all the versions you had
played displayed six-pocket quivers, then that reinforced this theory in
my mind since you must not have played any other versions and had
no way of comparing this version with the original. Hence my comment
"This explains a lot".

So, can you shed any light on this subject? How many hours did it
take? Or did you cheat somehow?

[Royou]

No I did not cheat, it did become tedious and very boring at times but every time I hit a new level it drove me to the next, as for hours.... I will try to break it down for you, oh just one thing I have done this all bar 1 time, and that was the very first time I played it, the first time I kept getting my butt kicked, that would have been on the level 8 or 9, so I decided that I was not going to let that happen, and tried everything I could to increase my skills, I found out by accident that Ninja skill would increase when throwing stuff anything really, then I read in an Atari ST magazine that if you hit a wooded door that this would increase the Fighter skill, so I found the first door that was wooded and not breakable and sat for hours doing this, I then tried just casting light spells and this would increase the wizard skill, I then upped it to fireball, the priest skill was only firstly done on 2 characters as I then did not think that I could increase the skill on characters with out mana, I found the scroll about casting mana as a potion but did not put the two things together till I'd finished the game for the first time, so I started a new game and got to the location that a few flasks are found and trained my priest characters up to a level that they could cast the mana potion, I then had the none mana charter drink it and had cast a light spell, I did this for a while thinking that I was wasting my time till he increased 1 wizard spell, and then that was it I was obsessed with getting him to max level priest and wizard, I think at the time that would have been Mon Master, I mapped the whole dungeon and spent hours redrawing it on graph paper to get it as good as I could, the problem I first had was I kept running out of food, the first time I would hunt worms as they would re-spawn near the grates, I then found the screamer room on level 3, the room with the portcullis and the pressure pad just to the left of the gate, and that was my food source solved, the was water on the start of level 4 so that problem was solved, I would have the ninja skill maxed out on level 1 as I did not need to sleep to regain stamina, and the food that I had found was enough to get me through the training, and the water was at hand near the stairs down to level 2, I use the square section near the 2 water fountains as I don't have to stop to move items from left to right or right to left as I used to do, that section allows for items to be thrown from the left floor to the right side of the screen, so that they hit the wall and fall in the correct spot to be thrown to the next wall and so on, till I got to the level I was happy with before moving on to the next section, once I'd done all 4 characters I would then got to the screamer room fill everything that I could with food and then go down to level 4 to train, at first I kept getting killed by flying snakes coming down the corridor and killing me, I then found that if I went through the door before the stairs down to level 5 and closed it, then I was safe, and if I cast fire ball at the door it would not kill me like the time I throw a Mon fireball at a wall lol, I've perfected it over the years and now have the best training method that I can find, I completed DM with only a 2 character party once, but never with just 1 character, that is something that I may try some time.

Now as to time taken this time, as can not say about the other times as it was a while ago, but I always sent days and weeks doing it, till I got blisters and saw wrists, this time it was easier for the fact that there was no mouse involved, so I could throw stuff faster, so the Ninja skill was the fastest to train, I would say that in total it took me around 10 hours per character so around 40 hours on Ninja I did this over 2 weeks, then had to just spend 3 hours a day, as the wife went into nag mode with a vengeance

I did Fighter next as that did not require sleep, in-between I would train the priest skill, till the mana would gone, then go back to fighter till the mana raised on it's own, the repeat till I maxed out the fighter skill on all 4 character, I had to change the charters positions to the front of the party for doing all 4, hours spent doing this as you have to wait for them to be able to hit was annoying, I did this while watching TV, I say watching though I did not pay much attention to what I was watching as I had to keep looking at the screen, so got annoyed as I had to keep rewinding what I was watching, so would spend 3 hours a day training the fighter skill, this must have taken me at least 5 weeks and was the longest skill to train, and would have been around 105 to 110 hours, during this I would have stated to need food so would make runs up to the screamer room to resupply on food.

I did priest next and that took quite a few runs up to the screamer room for food as did the wizard skill, it also involved sleep mode which would take time, this and wizard was done while watching TV, though this time I was able to pay a little more attention to what I was watching, now as for hours.... this must have taken though bare in mind I had increased levels while training Fighter, so hour spent would have been reduced for if I had been just training Priest on it's own, so as to hours I'd say that it took 3 weeks of 3 hours a day, which would be 63 hours.

I did Wizard last and that had many runs up to the screamer room as sleep mode had to be used again, that got faster as this time I tried something new, and that was when I'd gotten a character to Archmaster I would then cast mana potions and feed them to the character I wanted to get to Archmaster first, as each would get to archmaster it would mean that I could reduce the time needed to sleep to gain mana and could cast a lot more fireball spells, using a pad makes it so much faster than using a mouse, so to hours spent doing this would be 3 hours a day over nearly 3 weeks (19) days would make it 57 hours.

So in total it has taken me 265 to 270 hours over a 13 week period.

Oh incidentally the first none mana character that I managed to train in wizard and priest was Halk the barbarian

I hope this help clear up some of your questioning. I would just say again, that I have never used a cheat to do this or any programming/hacking or bot.

[Paul Stevens]

OK. Wow! Then it turns out that possibility 1) was the correct guess.
You are crazy! In any case, congratulations on a job well done.
It must put you in a class by yourself in the Universe.

Perhaps you are crazy enough to attempt a speed run through
Dungeon Master or Chaos Strikes back. Several people have
spent a significant part of their lives in that pursuit. With
unbelievable results. I forget what the record is but I think it
was less than one-half hour for Dungeon Master. Somewhat
less than your 270 hours but I suspect that there were a whole
lot of false starts that may have added up a hundred hours
or more.

[Royou]

Lol I am happy to wear that hat of the Crazy one lol I may have a look at the speed run, though half an hour would leave me feel ill equipped and naked lol

[Ameena]

Wow, that's a lot of time spent! :O
And it sounds like you managed it without knowing all the little tricks, like the fact that you gain more exp the deeper in the dungeon you are, which makes the Rat Room on Level Nine (counting the Hall of Champions as Level One) more efficient than the Screamer Room on Level Four. Also, doing stuff when faced with a monster gains you more exp than hacking/casting at empty air (I think it goes by whether a mob has recently hit you but can't remember that for sure). I don't think it makes any difference as to whether you're attacking a door or empty air. You also get Fighter exp from non-monster-based physical damage such as walking into walls and having doors bonk you on the head .
Also, you can increase the maximum mana of characters by having them hold/wear certain items. For example, things like moonstones, wands, and staves will all give a small number of mana points when equipped, so you can put them on a no/low-mana character to give them a starting boost, then have them cast stuff till they've gained a level or two and developed their own mana pool .
I never bothered with training, even back when I used to take four characters through the dungeon, so I can't really provide much other info other than stuff I've seen other people talk about on this forum. But you can also check out the DM Encyclopaedia (website is at dmweb.free.fr) which has all the info about everything relating to DM and CSB. If you've not played CSB, incidentally, why not give it a go? As a warning, though, I will say that DM is basically Easy Mode, a training run for the nightmarish maze of confusion and horror that is CSB .

[oh_brother]

As my 'Location' suggests, I thought I used spend a lot of time training. But this is beyond what I had imagined possible!

Actually the highest I ever naturally reached was ON Master. I could go to MON Master with the Firestaff and Pendant Feral and in the pre-internet days I thought that this was the hard limit (i.e you could never make it to Archmaster). Clearly I just lacked motivation

[Royou]

To get as high as you have does take a lot of dedication which is to be proud of some people.... well it would appear that just I tend to get obsessed lol

[Royou]

Wow, that's a lot of time spent! :O
And it sounds like you managed it without knowing all the little tricks, like the fact that you gain more exp the deeper in the dungeon you are, which makes the Rat Room on Level Nine (counting the Hall of Champions as Level One) more efficient than the Screamer Room on Level Four. Also, doing stuff when faced with a monster gains you more exp than hacking/casting at empty air (I think it goes by whether a mob has recently hit you but can't remember that for sure). I don't think it makes any difference as to whether you're attacking a door or empty air. You also get Fighter exp from non-monster-based physical damage such as walking into walls and having doors bonk you on the head .
Also, you can increase the maximum mana of characters by having them hold/wear certain items. For example, things like moonstones, wands, and staves will all give a small number of mana points when equipped, so you can put them on a no/low-mana character to give them a starting boost, then have them cast stuff till they've gained a level or two and developed their own mana pool .
I never bothered with training, even back when I used to take four characters through the dungeon, so I can't really provide much other info other than stuff I've seen other people talk about on this forum. But you can also check out the DM Encyclopaedia (website is at dmweb.free.fr) which has all the info about everything relating to DM and CSB. If you've not played CSB, incidentally, why not give it a go? As a warning, though, I will say that DM is basically Easy Mode, a training run for the nightmarish maze of confusion and horror that is CSB .

Thank you for the information Ameena, have written it all down in my notepad

I only ever got to level 3 in CSB so am long overdue a return, thank you fpr the pointer

[boyflea]

Hi, again: this topic caught my eye:
I will go and play this again, see if it works.

Q1: Is it possible to buy in-app purchases to boost your game? Will have to check, but could that also help in achieving the mega-high levels?

Q2: Is it possible to complete the game and kill Lord Chaos yet?

[Royou]

Hiya Boyflea, the in-app boost's do not work, so no.

I have not yet got to Lord Chaos yet as life has taken over and been a bit manic over the last few weeks, but I will be sitting down over the Christmas period to play

I should have also said that if I had known that it was an illegal version of the game I'd not have purchased it.

[Gambit37]

Hi Royou, just a quick note that you don't need to quote people's entire posts, especially when yours is the next reply. Just use the reply feature, rather than needless quoting.

Our forum rules are here: http://dungeon-master.com/forum/viewtop ... 47&t=24291

Thanks

[Ameena]

Maybe you could report the game to Apple (I think you said it was on an Apple phone you were playing, right?) and instead download one of the free versions, though I suppose in that case you wouldn't be able to play it on a phone if that was what you were after...

[Royou]

I am going to report it as level 8 the level with the long corridor the wall that moves after you step on the pad and wait for a while for it to open does not work, so no-doubt there will be other bugs, so am really pissed now.

[Paul Stevens]

That can be a bit tricky. There are two identical-looking
pads. The one you want is 26 steps into the corridor.
You can tell you are in the right spot if you place an object
on the cell to the west and it gets teleported.

If it is a bug, it is not the end of the world. You can
certainly proceed to win the game.

[Royou]

In this version you can not miss the pads and they are big and blocky, but now amount of waiting will remove the wall section letting me get access to Delta stood on the dam pad for over an hour, run up and down the corridor, stepped into the teleported to send me to the start of the corridor, then ran to the next pad hitting forward 26 times, but no matter how much I try I just can not will the stupid wall to move

Aye I am now on level 9 hehe was a bit distracted after killing a giant rat, and nearly fell off my chair when a giant scorpion screamed at me lol

Thanks for the advice though Paul

[Paul Stevens]

Here are some comments from the Ap Store:

Glitches galore!

Many spells do not work, chests randomly stop opening, "Zooom" pads don't work and the "long hall" in the arena doesn't teleport you to a door. While still entertaining it was a disappointment.

Bugged

Went one floor down and can't go any further because the iron key won't work. Not worth buying because you can't go very far.

And Back in 27 July 2013 someone wrote the following

Stop Stealing FLT's Games at least Track down the original devs as they still exist and get their permission... you bunch of thieves.

I'm going to see if I can get it to work on my daughter's iPad. I'd like to see
how faithful it is to the original. They also claim to have a version of
Chaos Strikes Back. I did not look into it.

[Sphenx]

Hi Paul,
I'm also interested in such information. I imagine that they developed a new engine then probably recreated a dungeon matching it, unless it has been using the java engine where DMJava format may be used ?

Their Chaos Strikes Back version is even called "Return to Chaos" and apparently nobody seems to get it work past the hall of champions (might be only the prison there ?)

[Ameena]

Wow...do they even know about GG's (free, non-stealy) version of DM/CSB/DM2 that he made from scratch and gave that same name?

[Jan]

So in total it has taken me 265 to 270 hours over a 13 week period.

Wow! You would certainly win the Maximum time spent on training competition! (and, no, I'm not going to participate)

Do you realise that even if you were paid the minimum wage you would earn - I believe - something between 1,500 and 2,000 pounds for that?

No, honestly, I'm stunned, you're a true fan, and - again - I'm glad you joined the forums. I've been very busy now but I'm looking forward to future conversations here! See you later.

[boyflea]

Hi all,
have bought it (again) - don't worry, I'll get a refund (like last time).

so yeah: in-app purchases contain:
Buy Heath, $0.99: Buy Magic, $0.99, Buy Superpowers $1.99, Restore the Dead Heroes $1.99

App last version seems to be April 2016: it seem sto be more complete than last time.
Inside the App itself, there are DM.bat, CSB.bat and EOB.bat files, and all the original .wav files form the original game. SAME FILES.
Spritesheet shows reproduction of the original grey-wall artwork and portraits are 'traced over' original artwork.

Engine must be new to work on platform and seems to be a hopelessly ambitious project that may originally have sincere origins: putting aside the lack of acknowledgements to the original (hey, its abandonware right, etc...) it has a servicable front-end and does work on it's platform ok.

BUT.

you still cannot finish this game. This is an alpha build being funded by people buying it because it is Dungeon Master: so it profits from the original, gives no credit, provides a broken app and even worse - this may even be the first time someone plays the game without knowing how 'off' the experience is.

So it seems to still be alive, and unkillable.
Download it, see for yourself: it is a perverse kind of experience, but one that leaves you feeling kinda dirty. Then go back to Apple, demand your money back (as it is just broken) and go back to the original game - she loves you more and will forgive your infidelity.

Again, I want to love this app, but by crikey, the guys making this are wilfully alienating the hardcore fanbase; soullessly harvesting the hard-fought nostalgia this game rightly evokes and are very slow turning all their earnings into regular updates...


Oh, and the last time someone came on these forums to flaunt how good it was, it was the author. Hopefully this is not happening again

[boyflea]

Hiya Boyflea, the in-app boost's do not work, so no.

I have not yet got to Lord Chaos yet as life has taken over and been a bit manic over the last few weeks, but I will be sitting down over the Christmas period to play

I should have also said that if I had known that it was an illegal version of the game I'd not have purchased it.

And sorry, just saw this, so I apologise for my last tongue-in-cheek remark .

Another reason to get a refund: believe me, submitting game apps to store used to be tougher to do, but Apple now outsource most submission reviews, so broken games are a known problem and they are keen to refund to maintain their integrity.

[Royou]

Hiya Boyflea, the in-app boost's do not work, so no.

I have not yet got to Lord Chaos yet as life has taken over and been a bit manic over the last few weeks, but I will be sitting down over the Christmas period to play

I should have also said that if I had known that it was an illegal version of the game I'd not have purchased it.

And sorry, just saw this, so I apologise for my last tongue-in-cheek remark .

Another reason to get a refund: believe me, submitting game apps to store used to be tougher to do, but Apple now outsource most submission reviews, so broken games are a known problem and they are keen to refund to maintain their integrity.

Hehe you are forgiven, no I am not the linked to this game in any way what so every, but am very happy to say that I have gotten my money back

[Royou]

So in total it has taken me 265 to 270 hours over a 13 week period.

Wow! You would certainly win the Maximum time spent on training competition! (and, no, I'm not going to participate)

Do you realise that even if you were paid the minimum wage you would earn - I believe - something between 1,500 and 2,000 pounds for that?

No, honestly, I'm stunned, you're a true fan, and - again - I'm glad you joined the forums. I've been very busy now but I'm looking forward to future conversations here! See you later.

Thank you Jan

[Royou]

Wow...do they even know about GG's (free, non-stealy) version of DM/CSB/DM2 that he made from scratch and gave that same name?

Oooo where can I find them?

[Royou]

So in total it has taken me 265 to 270 hours over a 13 week period.

Wow! You would certainly win the Maximum time spent on training competition! (and, no, I'm not going to participate)

Do you realise that even if you were paid the minimum wage you would earn - I believe - something between 1,500 and 2,000 pounds for that?

No, honestly, I'm stunned, you're a true fan, and - again - I'm glad you joined the forums. I've been very busy now but I'm looking forward to future conversations here! See you later.

Hehe I know.... please do not tell the wife lol.

Now this will shock you........ I am so gutted by this app, so much so that I don't think that I will go much further, but what will shock you is I'm thinking of doing all the training again but with a version from here lol even though I downloaded it onto my iPad I've never played it far from where my PC is lol so probably would have been better of just doing it on the PC, but the best thing to come out of all this, is that it lead me to this awesome site

[Royou]

So in total it has taken me 265 to 270 hours over a 13 week period.

Wow! You would certainly win the Maximum time spent on training competition! (and, no, I'm not going to participate)

Do you realise that even if you were paid the minimum wage you would earn - I believe - something between 1,500 and 2,000 pounds for that?

No, honestly, I'm stunned, you're a true fan, and - again - I'm glad you joined the forums. I've been very busy now but I'm looking forward to future conversations here! See you later.

Sorry for the extra post but forgot to say........ come on give it a go join and give me some competition lol na only joking lol

[Royou]

Maybe you could report the game to Apple (I think you said it was on an Apple phone you were playing, right?) and instead download one of the free versions, though I suppose in that case you wouldn't be able to play it on a phone if that was what you were after...

Have reported it also got a refund

[Royou]

Here are some comments from the Ap Store:

Glitches galore!

Many spells do not work, chests randomly stop opening, "Zooom" pads don't work and the "long hall" in the arena doesn't teleport you to a door. While still entertaining it was a disappointment.

Bugged

Went one floor down and can't go any further because the iron key won't work. Not worth buying because you can't go very far.

And Back in 27 July 2013 someone wrote the following

Stop Stealing FLT's Games at least Track down the original devs as they still exist and get their permission... you bunch of thieves.

I'm going to see if I can get it to work on my daughter's iPad. I'd like to see
how faithful it is to the original. They also claim to have a version of
Chaos Strikes Back. I did not look into it.

Really wish I'd read the reviews, normal I do, but was so stoked at seing it just hit the download.

Though on a possitive note.... it lead me here so that is a win!