Level 10 exploration question

[Erik Bauer]

Question: is it possible to explore all three ways in level 10, despite there being only 2 Cross Keys?
I've tried to blow down the backdoor of the third way with firewalls and axe chops, but without results...

[Ameena]

Not that I'm aware of, no - I think all three doors are too strong to be destroyed.

[Erik Bauer]

Uh... that's sad... ok, good to know, thanx

[Paul Stevens]

Indeed. I have investigated and determined that
a) There are only two Cross Keys
b) The doors at the entrance can only be opened with Cross Keys.
c) The doors at the exit can only be opened by party on the inside.
d) There are no pits on the level above.
e) There are no teleporters into any of the three areas.

I consider this a definite oversight. It breaks with the DM tradition
of multiple solutions to every problem. But the designers may have run
out of bytes on the floppy disk.
It does limit you to collecting a maximum of four SAR coins in this area
although there are a total of sixteen SAR coins in the dungeon. I would
provide a way of entering through the 'exit' doors but I have not
thought of anything clever yet. Perhaps the exit door for each area
could be 'enabled' by visiting the other two areas and then actually
opened momentarily by a character carrying the Poleyn of Ra

[Erik Bauer]

Thanx for your time, Paul. Much appreciated

Btw... does the Poleyn of Ra have effects on locked doors?

[Paul Stevens]

does the Poleyn of Ra have effects on locked doors?

Not that I know of.

[Ameena]

You could always just have each route have a spare Cross Key in it, maybe hidden behind some kind of secret wall or at the back of a heavily-guarded corridor. You'd then end up with a spare Cross Key by the time you finished the level but eh, you end up with a spare one or two Gold Keys after doing Level Three, so I don't suppose it matters too much .

[Saumun]

Hmm... might have been nice to have put an extra cross key in the coin-op alcoves at the end of the level.

[Erik Bauer]

does the Poleyn of Ra have effects on locked doors?

Not that I know of.

Uh, Ok... I just found weird your sentence mentinoing it LOL

[Erik Bauer]

Hmm... might have been nice to have put an extra cross key in the coin-op alcoves at the end of the level.

That would have been my idea, but nope.
It's ok not to be able to explore everything... I just found it a bit "off" in Dungeon Master

[slickrcbd]

It is not unprecedented, there is also the choice of treasures on level 7, where you do NOT know exactly what is behind each door and you can only open one of them. You can get a glimpse, but that is all.

Of course, you can always save and reload before opening a door, but you get the idea.

Still, it is the only three irreversible decisions you can make in the whole game (the third being which coin slots to use at the end of the level).

Spoiler

not counting completing The Firestaff by joining it to the Power Gem.

(sorry for the above, I don't know how to do a spoiler on this board, all three BBCode methods I know don't seem to work here yet on the panel to my right it says "BBCode is ON".)

[Erik Bauer]

Well, about the coin slots at the end of the level it's fairly easy to collect more than enough copper coins for obtaining all the goods in that room

[ChristopheF]

slickrcbd, you disabled BBCode in your profile. I enabled it again and fixed your post so the spoiler displays fine.

[Mike51]

Entering the Pit Room via the door on the Store Room level could also qualify as an irreversible decision, as it then becomes impossible (as far as I'm aware) to close all of the pits.

It's years since I've looked at the Cross Keys problem. Back then I tried (unsuccessfully) to open a back door by luring a trollin onto the plate. An elegant solution would be to first use one of the keys to get to the back doors, then use a trollin to open that back door - perhaps if the "open door" spell was cast while a trollin was on the plate and a "see through" spell was active - which would simultaneously open the front door allowing the three routes to be cleared with three passes. Anybody tried that?

[Erik Bauer]

Thanx for the tip, but it's too much of a stretch for my tastes even to try it

[Paul Stevens]

Off topic, I fear.....
I have thought for a long time that it would be interesting
to create a Dungeon Master game with added complications.
The map, creatures, and objects would be exactly the same
so that playing it would be very familiar. But every puzzle might
have a bit of added complication. And adding invisible things
to the map would also be OK (Pressure pads, invisible pits,
fake walls, teleporters). The idea being that it would look the
same but be much more difficult. Use standard DM
mechanics and avoid dead ends,

There is no way I could be clever enough to pull off such a thing.
Perhaps a group effort.

[JETENGINE]

Well, there is always a solution. Even if it means praying to the one who creates and changes things. In other words, editing the dungeon or save files. I don't recommend this lightly, though. It makes the game feel too... contrived.
If you DO decide to cheat like this, I would recommend putting the final key at the end of the level or halfway into the next one.

Not ever one to suggest this,
James.

[Erik Bauer]

Well, no need to cheat, really.
My question raised because I'm recording a playtrough for my YT channell and I'd like it to be as complete as possibile. So, if game mechanics and level design states that only two ways can be explored, be it. Sad (some items will be missed), but it's not up to me to decide how the Dungeon works.

[Leslie]

You can actually finish the cross key level without noticing that there're Trollins around.
As far as I know that's unique in the dungeon. On all other levels you meet each kind of monster at least once.

[Mike51]

Is it possible that extra keys would be available if the player solved one or more of the puzzles that appear to have been built into the game? E.g. leaving all of the pits in the Pit Room in the same position, or leaving all of the green buttons pressed in?

[Paul Stevens]

extra keys would be available if...all of the green buttons pressed in

I like these kind of 'extras' For example, a simple way of solving a puzzle
if some seemingly insignificant action has taken place previously
in the game. Chaos Strikes Back has many examples. Carrying a
ROCK to open the door to the worm generation room on the top
level is a great example. Totally unexpected. You can only wonder
"Why did that door open last time I was here?" It makes the game
seem very random and provides great satisfaction when the cause
is finally discovered.

[Saumun]

I’m quite interested in Paul’s idea.
I might start to tinker and see where it goes.
I have a couple of ideas.

[Mike51]

Paul - funny you should mention the "random solution" aspect, as in recent months I've been struggling with a problem that could fit the bill. I started a DM run on the Atari version that involved killing only the really nasty monsters, using War Cry to gain levels. Being a tad anal I usually repeat a part of the game until I'm happy it's gone really well. On one occasion when I faced up to the Screamer standing over the Key of B on Level 1 the damn thing stepped to one side of the square, allowing me to pick up the key. As far as I'm aware computer programs don't do random - so I'm doomed to spend the rest of my life there unless I can work out how to make that happen. I'm now wondering if the wall that says nothing, does something.

Your earlier proposal of a group effort suggests we experienced the same feeling after completing DM - "Wouldn't it be great if it had more to offer". An editor on an ST Format disc (I suspect you may also have used it) allowed me to tick my personal boxes by tweaking the architecture in a few places. But sadly enhancements that can be laid bare by anybody with an editor that displays the floor plans would be of little use in what you're proposing.

[Saumun]

Depends what you’re using.

In RTC you can only access it through the text file, and in DSB you can obfuscate the dungeon.lua file.
I haven’t used CSBuild (yet) so I’m not sure how you’d go about it.

[Paul Stevens]

CSBwin and CSBuild have an encryption capability.
Zyx used it for some time in his Conflux.

[Mike51]

Sauman - if you do decide to take this on perhaps we could get a Wish List up and running. My main gripe was that the final set of stairs discovered by completing Level 6 didn't seem to contribute as much to the game as it deserved.

Erik - Fwiw it would be surprising if the team who were considerate enough to put item-only transporters below the pits at 13,29 on Level 1 and 11,26 on Level 2 would then create a situation that could result in some players wasting countless hours trying to find a third key that doesn't exist. When they designed the game they couldn't have predicted Christophe's immense contribution. The solution doesn't have to be a third key, but if that isn't a puzzle with a solution my gut feeling is we'd only have been given one key.

For another clue to their mindset - when next you can spare the time to revisit Level 5 walk through the door you opened at 15,14, stop on 15,16, throw a fireball towards the wall and quickly turn around.

[Saumun]

At the moment I’m in the “thinking about it/possibly may tinker” stage.
No harm in throwing ideas in though.

If I start this, it might be an idea to pm me with suggestions rather than put them in the forum.
Not much point in having new stuff to discover if you can just read what they are here.

On the cross key point, I agree that you’d expect to either get one key or all three. I would agree with Paul S that this seems like an oversight, and though that doesn’t feel in keeping with the meticulous nature of the dungeon, I can’t imagine what else it would be (maybe sheer deviousness).

[Paul Stevens]

Level 5 walk through the door you opened at 15,14, stop on 15,16

As you probably could guess, I never discovered those two teleporters.
And I give up.....what are they for? If there were some sort of pit above them
it might suggest a nice solution to an otherwise difficult puzzle. But I don't see
why they are there.

[Mike51]

Oddly enough Paul my assumption is that

Spoiler

all of those teleporters protect the player against irreversible decisions. The two pits, once closed, can't be opened again. The teleporters prevent a player from leaving an important item in those pits. And a player might, for one reason or another, try to open that door on Level 5 by throwing an item through the door. Without the teleporters the item would be lost unless he/she eventually succeeded in opening the door. The teleporters ensure that the item either lands on the plate or ends up outside of the door.

[Sphenx]

Level 5 walk through the door you opened at 15,14, stop on 15,16

.....what are they for?

To prevent losing throwable items that fly through the iron door in hope to cheat the "test your strength" puzzle (to reach the square pad). There are 2 teleporters at 15,16 and 15,17 that move items (including missile spells) back before the door.