[Custom Dungeon] [Imprisoned Again] Feedback

[sucinum]

many thx for these reviews which motivated me to build the next dungeon (somewhere in future *g). please allow me to comment on some comments
>Worst part - needing to drop down a pit to solve a puzzle still!
>Entering pits to finally find a key
okok, was the last time
>This dungeon is a model for good balance. The difficulty increases progressively, the weapons and armor are hard to find, the water level must be watched. only the food is overabundant.
*mentalnotetoself* kick out the screamer room
>With more furnitures and texts, and a storyline, it could be improved. It's still very immersive.
i was fighting with limits of dmute, in my next dungeon, that wont be a problem any more.
>Demons or Poison Slimes would have worked there quite well I imagine.
the demon image was reserved for the tower bosses, poson spitters would have had an odd color, erm. jawas can fly and would have been a bad choice.
>Some bits were very difficult, others maybe too easy
some examples for too easy part plz, i will change that
>Nothing too complex: this dungeon shows that you don't need a lot of hex editing or OTT dmuting to achieve a great result
that hits the point, im not too skilled with dmute
>The knights in the 'matrix'. Generated too many in my opinion so got a little tedious hacking my way through
i hated them, too, but i couldnt think of anything harder

ok, im evolving with each dungeon, i think, but the next one will still be an experiment, dont expect too much then next to the surprise.

[PaulH]

Some bits were very difficult, others maybe too easy
>some examples for too easy part plz, i will change that

Maybe I used the wrong words there, I should have probably said, 'I was suprised I got through THAT as quickly as I did!' The thing is, and this goes for probably all the regulars on this site, is that we have been playing DM for so long that we all get adept at different parts of the game so can complete different sections at different rates. I have been playing since '86 back in the days of my ancient ST and have been a total DM nut ever since. My strong point has always been fighting as I have developed tactics against all the creatures and in my opinion am very quick on the controls so I have been able to get myself quickly out of dire situations. I found I could use these tactics well in the Blue Ogre trap for example. But after watching my relatives play, they find this exceptionally difficult, but as I mentioned before they will not stop until they have beat the dungeon. This to me is a very good indicator of a good dungeon, the fact that you want more and more. Personally with the Blue Ogre trap I would change the iron gate to a wooden one as you can fire loads of poison through the door and wipe lots of them out! And while I liked the Demon tower boss concept but they died just a little too quickly and were easy to fight. Didn't mean I did not enjoy fighting them though! Also the matrix knights went a bit the other way, too many of them. Possibly a few less generators but one or two hard nuts with a key might make gameplay better. But I am picking spots here, ignore me!

The ultimate question is, How do you make a dungeon hard for the Archmaster players? Maybe you don't have to, as playability is the key and enjoyment. And I enjoyed this dungeon more than any other I have played to date.

[Wil]

I haven't finished the dungeon yet, and wonder if I'll be able one day, it is really really tough!
I don't mind worms, but immaterrial beings make the game impossible.
Maybe I'm less an expert than you, but are there vorpal blades available in this dungeon?
Is there a tactic to pick up the Hardcleaver weapon and helm when you're surrounded by 4 scorpios? Because it's hard to fight golems and knights without a "berserk" option!

[Christopher]

I don't remember what weapons you would have at this point, but the Stab option from the Diamond Edge is good for attacking the Golems and Knights. Otherwise jab and punch would be your best option because they are fast attacks.
As far as any good tactics go, now that you know exactly where the ambush is, you can get several Vi potions ready, get Oh Ven spells prepared, and charge when you're ready. The real problem is that the preasure pads for this trap can be toggled more than once.

[rain`]

use the horn of fear for the scorpions, most people overlook the usefulness of it =]

[beowuuf]

I think you are expected to have kick-ass fighters there. Personally i didn't, and just blew my way through it
Alternately, take out one of the sides so you can get a one-on-one fight going, then repeat as needed!

KU potions are always good - weapons and punches do much more damage, so knights and golems get easier

[Wil]

Thanks! This weekend, I found a vorpal blade in the "matrix" full of knights.
I know there is a Diamond Edge there too, from a previous gamesave, but can't pick it up now: each time I go there, the more knights I kill, the more knights wander, I can't even enter the matrix. Does someone know what generates them?
The golem in the room next to the matrix has an Inquisitor, so it's a problem solved.

[PicturesInTheDark]

Well, if you want an answer to the question of the knight generator, here it is.

***USUALSPOILERWARNING***

I'm playing the game myself at the moment and reached the same area as you did - the Golem with the Executioner (pretty quick boy at times !). Then I opened the matrix door and let the knights come to the door to kill them. After that I tried to attract the next, went out and did the same. I pretty quickly guessed, that under or near the door was a trigger - what I found out a little later was, that the whole matrix was full with knights pretty soon. So (I admit freely) I checked it with DMute and here's the plain answer to your question: the field directly before the door triggers 6 (!) knights and 1-4 Materializers every time you enter it.

I'm far from done, but I'm amazed how all those people here finished the dungeon if they did not either look into DMute or simply have tactics I cannot come up with - if you don't know where the triggers are, you cannot but create more and more of the buggers. Anyway, that was your answer.

Regards, PitD

[beowuuf]

The trick is to know Amber's playing style (he can correct me if I am wrong) but alot of the time you will find toe to toe the best way of dealing with these
Powerful characters using toe to toe - you don't keep triggering events
Develop or set yourself up for toe to toe - where you can give alot of damage fast, and can soak up alot throguh shields, armour and vi potions
Its worth the sleeping and preperation where you can just do give yourself a little more mana and potions

[PicturesInTheDark]

Hmm. Well I slept over it once and some of my anger has faded. But still: I think the matrix is overdoing it hugely, because even if you don't start out by trying to get the knights under the door (which is tempting and was my first first attempt until I guessed at some point -after creating probably 12 more knights- that something was wrong when they just kept coming and I saw the one in the first room was popping up again). So at that time I had a possible 18 (!) knights there minus the two I killed, plus 3 zytaxes. Not funny. Because: there are other triggers in there which can get you in more trouble.

I prefer toe to toe anyway, and you can dance around them hacking away, but very soon (very soon indeed with these amounts!) you will be cornered and dead if you don't reload over and over again until you just by pure luck kill one without another coming around and continue to do so. That is just not my picture of a good dungeon, because you just cannot find out the trigger places - and I do not think that the ratio I give is unrealistic for first time play.

The real ugly part is if you overlook one of the two crucial little buttons in that madhouse and have to come back after making it out alive...

So correct me please, but when having an Inquisitor and the diamond edge (with a little luck obtained in the matrix), what else than move quick and hack is there to do? Magic worries the knights very little and is a waste of time, so you have to pray that you never get cornered? Not very well balanced in my view... and I want to add: to challenge Archmaster players packing full a dungeon of uglies cannot be the way! With someone to take over the coding part while I do the ideas I am willing to prove that dungeons can be quite hard without 15 knights in a room...

Regards, PitD

[Christopher]

Invisiblity spell works against Knights. I never used it there, so I don't know how effective it is with several knights around. Ya Ir should help you a little as well.

[Wil]

Thanks. Obviously, my tactic to let them come under the door wasn't the best imaginable! F the knights. Because of them, my chars are master fighters already. I think too this room full of knights is just too much. You have to develop super fighters (&super priests on the rear). I'll try, but it seems hard not to be cornered and hacked.

[PicturesInTheDark]

Thanks Christopher, but Invisibility does not help long enough and costs most (?) of all spells, and Ya Ir is standard for me anyway. I just think that surviving in a dungeon should be possible without constant reloading, otherwise personally I'd rather have some fun otherwise. And I extremely doubt anybody saying he or she did not die in this dungeon a few times, no matter how experienced...

@Wil: agreed. Some parts in this otherwise imaginative and creative dungeon simply disappoint me and lessen the otherwise enjoyable gameplay. This room is dispensable. Good luck, however, to you - you will
find, that once you survived the first tower including the matrix level everything else will be a lot easier - until the end

Regards, PitD

[sucinum]

i will be overworking this part.

[PicturesInTheDark]

Hmm. I'll post my review based on the old one, because I'm a stubborn creature trying to beat a dungeon. But thanks for reading this and taking an interest.

Regards, PitD

[sucinum]

i just looked at the dungeon, and i decided to make greater changes at some parts, this will take a while, but will result in a better dungeon. see this version as a beta test

[PicturesInTheDark]

I was building up a lot of tension during gameplay, so I'm not sure that I like the beta idea.

Regards, PitD

[sucinum]

atm, i have removed the level with the matrix completely, because it wasnt too funny. i will replace it by something better. the towers remain unchanged mostly, ill only change details there.

[j. fechner]

Dear Fans,

i hope you can help me about the add-ons

i have a problem to go on.

Location: Nicodemus The Court mage
Room: on this level there are four stairs leading to four corbamites!
I got them all.
There is a room with three pressure plates on which first are spiders with a hole in front.
If you kill the spiders the holes close and you find three pits in the wall.
if you look through the walls you see some magic courtains.

Please help me to go further on
What to hell have i to do?????


looking forward to your helping hints

[PicturesInTheDark]

As far as I can guess from your description you are not in the level with the four stairs leading to the corbums but already up one (Nicodemus...). If you already have the four corbums then I wonder how you got them - since one of them can be found directly after the room you described containing the spiders.

The magic curtains you described are teleporters that transport the Oitus (spiders) to their locations when you enter the level at 2(17,15) from the stairs, the pressure pads opening the pits in front of them. When you have killed the Oitus the pits close and you get access to the alcoves they were trapped in.

Now each of these alcoves contains a push button that removes parts of the western wall of this room (fake walls at 2(11,12), 2 (9,12) and 2 (7,12)), each time freeing some zytaxes (materializers).

When you got rid of them there's only a not-too-fireproof door behind you and the guarding demon of this tower, who holds the corbum for this part.

I hope I found the right answer to your question, let me know if you meant something else. By the way, amber changed some parts of the dungeon, and the latest version is also available in the "new dungeons" download area - see under Imprisoned again - II.

Regards, PitD

[j. fechner]

thanks a lot to your hints.
i think i?m completely wrong. I killed the daemon and got the corbum 2 weeks ago. I thought, here would lie the solution to go further on.
I don?t know how to go on.
I got four corbums - hurray, but what have i to do with them?

you are right about the location.
If you look through the wall left to the stairs leading down there is a stair hidden leading upstairs. I cannot open the wall and i know no other way to go on. If you go down the stairs you find a teleporter leading to "kitchen (with the only water in the dungeon)" "weapon room" ....
Also there are four now openend ways from which i came to this level.

That is what i explored:
the four ways upstairs to the corbums
The "matrix-room" - with two button-holes in the walls
The "no wall-room" - with one button hole
The "room next to the four stairs" - with one button-hole
The "room next to the four stairs with shooting walls" - with one button hole

What have i to do now?

sincerely yours

J. Fechner

[PicturesInTheDark]

You got me confused about the "wall left to the stairs leading down" containing "a stair hidden leading upstairs". I cannot find anything like that on the spider (Oitu) level nor the one below. Please specify the level and coordinates if possible - or describe exactly with identifyable references what is near to the place where you are standing. (Preferably also let me know if you are still playing Version 1.2 or have changed to V1.3!)

As for the way on - use the teleporter to get back to the level with the "kitchen". If you deactivated the false wall in the back of this room (reachable after passing by the four stairways where the different ways start on this same level - at the "dead end" is a small switch that will remove a wall from the "kitchen"), you can leave the "kitchen" through the "back entrance" and will find a gem hole there. Use the first corbamite - and follow the lead...

Be prepared though - once you use the teleporter at the end of this passage, there is no turning back. Choose your equipment carefully and fill up your water skins and flasks before using it.

Regards, PitD

[j. fechner]

Thanks a lot - that was it!!!

Now i can go on.
That clue - i guess - i never get it alone, That hole alwas was for the use of gems (i think).

The mysterious stairs:
I play version 3.4 (thats what is shown in the left corner of the Window)

Location: The big hall, which to the South leads downstairs direktly to the teleporter to the "kitchen"-Level.
to the east is a pathway leading to a gate and a wooden door to the four stairs with the corbums.
to the north is a wooden door leading to a room fullfilled with imaginary walls.
to the west is the matrix (with endless knights and immaterial beeings).

If you stay in front of the stairs leading down (you are heading south) you have to to two steps to the left side.
now cast "see through walls". Then you see stairs leading up.
you have to know ... i examided ALL walls in this level.... more than tree times.

Thanks hope to hear from you again.

Ps.: Still the best in "walk through games" isn?t it?
greetings and many thanks to amber

[j. fechner]

Hello again,
i think, there is something missing.
In the room with the four mirrors i used mirror magnifier and rabbits foot.
What - to hell - do i need for the power-mirror?

helpless again

j. fechner

[PicturesInTheDark]

The stairs up you mentioned are perfectly accessible - in fact they are one (Nicodemus I think) of the four sets leading up to the corbum level to the top of each tower. If you go from the big hall to the east and then south and west you'll arrive there - but you already have before. So never mind that.

Power... is something a mighty wizard might be able to provide. Think about it - what is it, that only a wizard can do in this game to show his power? If you played CSB before, there is a parallel to the way of the wizard ... there was also a section where you had to prove you're a wizard which had a similar solution.

Hope that hint helps, if not I can also put it more clearly. But try to find out yourself...

Regards, PitD

[Wil]

So, finally I finished this dungeon. I started a new game, better knowing what I had to do, and it seemed less hard.
In the matrix, the first time, I just entered and smashed the knight with the delta and the new-found inquisitor (dance-hacking), the spaghetti with the vorpal (there was only one!). I proceeded cautiously, could grab everything, found the delta and killed the remaining knights. I certainly walked on regenerators, but the knights were isolated.
The second time (yes, I missed a switch!), it was the horror, so I stood in front of the door, never moving (which is a real trial when the spaghetti are pelting you!), let the knights come under the door and killed them all before adventuring further (the trick : wait till they come), and again the matrix was a pleasant place. So it is playable.
But what if you don't have a vorpal blade? It happened to me the first time. You came all the way (warrior) for nuts. For gameplay's sake, the 1st vorpal should be available by each way.
The diamond edge should be available before the matrix, because it demands ninja specialization, and in fact, it would be nice to enter the matrix only after you have completed the 4 ways.
The 4 final scorpios in the warrior way regenerate all the time. Once would be enough. It prevents you from walking back this way, and it prevents you from seriously grabbing the hardcleave. Likewise, the 3 "surprise" ones before regenerate each time. Is it a technical constraint?
This dungeon needs a text, at least an explanation as to what to do. It's tricky in the end when you're not even sure that you should find a firestaff.
btw, (spoiler)



there is a demon regenerator tile just in front of the stair in Chaos'lair. Ain't it too much? Also, too much dragons regenerate! One can appear and roast you while you rest down the stair to Chaos.

On the other hand, it's well designed, the texts on walls and in scrolls are changed. It's a tricky dungeon. The riddles are easy, but if you wander around too much, bunches of monsters will appear.

I'm short in time and, it's long enough, so that's all for now.

[sucinum]

yes, there ARE many triggers to regenerate monsters - i simply wanted to avoid that ppl clear the ares monster by monster, but all at once. the regeneration pads all have a delay bevor they spit out the next monster, that should be enough. of course it gets very hard if you retreat some times and create more monsters than there should be at this stage. this happend too often in the matrix-lvl, thats why i revised this lvl and swapped it out. here is the revised version: http://dmweb.free.fr/Forum/read.php?f=7&i=315&t=315
the chaos-lvl should not be too hard, you have many room to avoid the monsters and their fireballs (and the few fireball the shooters fire around ). so, again, you cant beat this level by simply standing on the walls - but its nearly impossible to fill it with too much monsters.
you wont get too far with the usual, cautios dm-style, but you have to play very offensive. i chose this way because its far more challenging than some stupid riddles (oh, im bad in creating riddles anyways...).
for the scorpions and the hardcleave - i simply killed one of them with fireballs and stepped inside the niche to grad the hardcleave. if you kill/frighten away them fast enough, you are able to grab both items, if you arent able to, you will learn it at this stage, by killing 12 scorpions
i hardly recommend to clear the 1st stage of each tower before proceeding one of them further, to strenghen your characters. and i also recommend to clear all 4 towers before proceeding to the next stage (in both, the matrix- and the revised version).
the dungeon is hard, i think and it forces a special playing style (more or less) or maybe a 2nd or 3rd try to complete it.
but i hope the regenerators arent TOO frustrating and you have fun in chewing through it. i personally had
im glad about every post in this thread

[sucinum]

>>Death knights right after the start:

they are not meant to be killed
not at all...i wonder if thats possible, never tried

>>Puzzles: Craftsman
>>Craft: Master

well - the puzzles are limited by my crafting skills...
i think i can handle the basics of dmute, but not the special tricks. compared to zyx or beowuuf, i'm a newbie in this.
or the other way round: after reading a few hours, anyone could technically create this dungeon

imho, 1.3 is an improvement, but over time, i lost some of my dm-skills and i have to admit, i don't beat my own dungeon atm, so i can't test it properly (or maybe i can test even better this way ).
except to have _some day_ a version 1.4, which will be for csb4win, bugfree and maybe a bit rebalanced.

thx for your time to play and make these posts (this counts for everyone here of course!)

[beowuuf]

personally i don't count craft as how much you know so much as as how you apply it. when hex tricks and complex mechanics work, they are very sweet (pick a zyx dungeon at random and see what i mean) but it can be using the basics in a way that adds atmosphere, or polish, or surprise.
CSB is the perfect example of craft - there are no complex tricks used in that dungeon, not much advanced coding using actuators, but some of the ways puzzles are created, from giggler randomising onwards, are very clever

[PicturesInTheDark]

That's very close to how I rated as well. If you know less but use that knowledge well, it's high craft.

Regards, PitD