Would it be possible to create a more realistic light model? I'm not suggesting a true 3D lighting effect, because I know the engine doesn't work that way.
Say for example I'm designing a set of wall graphics. Perhaps the engine also includes a set of grey scale alpha channel masks matted through black that is then overlayed on each wall graphic. This would mean that I wouldn't have to mess around with creating lots of graphics differently shaded - the engine could do all the work. The masks would have to fit the walls exactly though so it may still mean a lot of work for the masks to be correct for each new texture set... It would also negate the need to create separate masks for wall items as they could be drawn first, so appearing UNDER the alpha channel shaded graphic... would that work?
Perhaps if the engine scaled wall graphics correctly too, we would only need to define one set of east-west graphics and that is scaled depending how near or far you are from a wall.
Better lighting / Wall scaling
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George Gilbert
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Re: Better lighting / Wall scaling
That's a real mess to do unfortunately. As you say it would allos for easier designing of graphics, but it'd slow down the code so much to be prohibitively so. There's a possibility of it doing the pre-scaling and shading on boot-up, but I'd have to look into that quite carefully and wouldn't be something that I could do for a while.
Would be nice though
Would be nice though
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cowsmanaut
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uhmmm
I'm not sure exactly what you would need this for Gambit.. You are talking about a simulated bump map. Something that is just starting to show up in the new 3d engines.. However they have a wider range of angles .. I can't really see why you would need that in a DM clone. It's far easier to just draw the items.
The only reason to change a lighting angle in this game seeing how its all symetrical (or should be) and the light source is always you.. is if you added light sources that changed.
So rather than draw the wall and then the bump mask it's easier to just draw the wall..
If you mean to add an object the couldn't be mirrored what would it be? And really.. you would only need to draw it twice in that case. Not THAT big a deal is it? You would be more or less drawing it three times. once for the image and two more for the light masks. If you ask me you are asking for more work!
The only reason to change a lighting angle in this game seeing how its all symetrical (or should be) and the light source is always you.. is if you added light sources that changed.
So rather than draw the wall and then the bump mask it's easier to just draw the wall..
If you mean to add an object the couldn't be mirrored what would it be? And really.. you would only need to draw it twice in that case. Not THAT big a deal is it? You would be more or less drawing it three times. once for the image and two more for the light masks. If you ask me you are asking for more work!
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Gambit37
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You misunderstood..
No, that's not what I meant.
Say I'm designing a new set of wall graphics (which I currently am, as you are). What I'd like to be able to do is to create JUST the one long wall east-west and the 4 angles walls that diminish away from you. I'd like to create them without having to work out all the shading and scalings, so that all I need to do is to design one set of graphics at maximum brightness.
The masks I'm proposing are not bump maps, but simple alpha channel graphics that contain a gradient fill that goes from black to transparent. These masks are then drawn over the top of the wall graphics to create the lighting effects that we see in DM.
I agree that in performance terms, what I'm asking may ultimately be pointless. But froma creative point of view, I'd rather spend my time creating cool textures than having to also work out shading, scaling and tiling issues. That's why I feel it would be a cool thing for the engine to do automatically.
Does that make sense?
Say I'm designing a new set of wall graphics (which I currently am, as you are). What I'd like to be able to do is to create JUST the one long wall east-west and the 4 angles walls that diminish away from you. I'd like to create them without having to work out all the shading and scalings, so that all I need to do is to design one set of graphics at maximum brightness.
The masks I'm proposing are not bump maps, but simple alpha channel graphics that contain a gradient fill that goes from black to transparent. These masks are then drawn over the top of the wall graphics to create the lighting effects that we see in DM.
I agree that in performance terms, what I'm asking may ultimately be pointless. But froma creative point of view, I'd rather spend my time creating cool textures than having to also work out shading, scaling and tiling issues. That's why I feel it would be a cool thing for the engine to do automatically.
Does that make sense?
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cowsmanaut
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uhmm
AS I said.. THAT is still a bump mask/light mask. it is used to define the way a texture is lit.. it doesn't need to be 'bumpy' a surface can be flat.
My point is this.. if you take the time to figure out how the texture is going to be lit and take the time to create a mask for this then why not apply it and then continue on your way? why have the computer workout at start up what would essentially take you a few mins to do?? for RTC to do it at start up would probably take a lot longer. and to do it real time with out decent hardware would be a pain.
What are you using to draw with? If you use a program like photoshop which supports layers you can set a top layer to make white transperant. the do a gradient fill over the full angled wall. Then chop it up..
However keep in mind that this method doesn't look all that good. It's a little to indescriminant. I know because my first set of walls was like this and the looked very flat.. this is ok if the surface IS flat.. but if it has cracks and stones and all that you need to take more care in shading it.
Just like you I look for ways to cut corners but if you cut too many your art suffers. the method above though can help speed the process since you can add white to the upper layer where you want more highlights before you flatten the image
My point is this.. if you take the time to figure out how the texture is going to be lit and take the time to create a mask for this then why not apply it and then continue on your way? why have the computer workout at start up what would essentially take you a few mins to do?? for RTC to do it at start up would probably take a lot longer. and to do it real time with out decent hardware would be a pain.
What are you using to draw with? If you use a program like photoshop which supports layers you can set a top layer to make white transperant. the do a gradient fill over the full angled wall. Then chop it up..
However keep in mind that this method doesn't look all that good. It's a little to indescriminant. I know because my first set of walls was like this and the looked very flat.. this is ok if the surface IS flat.. but if it has cracks and stones and all that you need to take more care in shading it.
Just like you I look for ways to cut corners but if you cut too many your art suffers. the method above though can help speed the process since you can add white to the upper layer where you want more highlights before you flatten the image
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Gambit37
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Ummm, OK... I think
I use Photoshop, and I agree that in RTC, for performance reasons, it's probably better to do all the work in PhotoShop up front as you suggest.
However, the reason I suggested this method is that as a creative person, I want to spend more time worrying about the look of something, rather than having to spend hours on technical considerations such as lighting. I appreciate that getting the lighting right using PhotoShop is a skill in itself, and I am already pleased with the results I have achieved.
But my argument is that anything that gets in the way of the creative process is annoying and if it could be implemented by the RTC engine in the first place, it makes the designers job easier.
You seem to be happy to spend ages getting this right by hand. Personally, I'd prefer to spend that time designing something else and get RTC to sort out all the lighting for me. If it can't be done or isn't practical, so be it.
However, the reason I suggested this method is that as a creative person, I want to spend more time worrying about the look of something, rather than having to spend hours on technical considerations such as lighting. I appreciate that getting the lighting right using PhotoShop is a skill in itself, and I am already pleased with the results I have achieved.
But my argument is that anything that gets in the way of the creative process is annoying and if it could be implemented by the RTC engine in the first place, it makes the designers job easier.
You seem to be happy to spend ages getting this right by hand. Personally, I'd prefer to spend that time designing something else and get RTC to sort out all the lighting for me. If it can't be done or isn't practical, so be it.
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Gambit37
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Re: Bah!
Bah to you too! Seriously, I agree with you - of course it's important. My point was that if realistic lighting can be created by the engine itself, it frees up the texture/world creator of the dungeon to spend more time getting a texture right WITHIN THE CONSTRAINTS OF THE LIGHT MODEL.
Clearly as a designer I still need to know about how light falls and diffsues, and how the engine renders it's lighting effects, before I can make a convincing texture.
Seriously, I agree with you - of course it's important. My point was that if realistic lighting can be created by the engine itself, it frees up the texture/world creator of the dungeon to spend more time getting a texture right WITHIN THE CONSTRAINTS OF THE LIGHT MODEL.Clearly as a designer I still need to know about how light falls and diffsues, and how the engine renders it's lighting effects, before I can make a convincing texture.