(2nd?) Best game in DM's genre?

[Mindstone]

Betrayal at Krondor is my joint number one.

Dungeon Master is supreme at creating atmosphere and tension, still upon the throne of fantasy dungeon crawlers in 2018!

BaK was supreme at characterization, depth and story. It took until Planescape: Torment, in my opinion, for a game to reach those aesthetic literary heights again.

I strongly recommend BaK to everyone. The gameplay itself is flawed, and some parts are extremely silly (being trapped by banshees outside Sethanon for instance!) But that is what cheat programmes are for - just teleport yourself out of it!

As it is played for the story more than anything, I would strive to overlook its other flaws.

Oh and graphics wise I absolutely love it. That picture of Gorath looking stern and defiant as a prideful, just moredhel is forever blazoned in my memory as a vision of heroic tragedy!

[Chaos-Shaman]

Good point about the static graphics. Sometimes a shot of the area is all that is needed for the description and details of where the party is located and what the mission is about.

[Erik Bauer]

It's harsh to admit it, but right now Dungeon Master is my second in place, albeit it has and will allways have a special place in my heart.
Dungeon Master consacrated a borning genere and had features almost none of its clones had:

-Real "real time": everything happened in real time, also doors open/close action, while in most clones the door animations freezed everything else. (In Black Crypt even projectile animations did that)

-Dinamic Lighting: Torches and spell's light was not a ON/OFF thing, but lighting degraded as the torch/spell went off. In DM2 they improved lighting to the point spells and explosions became light sources. None of it's 16Bit clones had that, as far as I can remember

-Positional Sounds: Dungeon Master sound system used Amiga's stereo capabilities tricking it to make sound appear positional to the spot the party were standing on, keeping in account the cardinal direction it was facing. That still is impressive today (In my Youtube run I managed to track a hiding jiggler just by following his step sounds).

-Realism and Consistency: Everything looked and acted as real as possibile within the dungeon. You needed both food and water to survive, monsters didn't blink when hit, dead party members left corpses to the ground, you could cast small items and spells through portcullis, walking into walls hurt party members... I could go on.

-Game had a backstory and was consistent with it: reading Grey Lord's notes in the tomb of the firestaff always gives me chills, the hidden ending is genius and lore consistent, they way you must defeat Lord Chaos is hinted since the intro you can read in the handbook.

ALL those things made Dungeon Master unique and unparalled... until Legend of Grimrock came out.
LoG is, to me, both a loveletter to DM and the first game to fully capture it's spirit and sense of awe, it's first and true heir, to say. Plus it' adds modern fancyness, dream sequences, great character stats/skill progression, it's very well balanced and has a good replay value.

So, to me, Legend of Grimrock is the best DM-Like game ever created, DM is the second. Albeit that, Dungeon Master is the one i LOVE more because it was the first one and so ahead of it's times.

[MasterWuuf]

EOB2 was very good, but Black Crypt is the one that stands out. Great graphics for the time.

Bane of the Cosmic Forge (Wizardry 6) is probably my favourite - gameplay was phased with battles, but great story and loads of items. I have replayed it many times, and still haven't found all the weapons!

I've been busy, but have spent a little time on Return to Skullkeep.

Most games I find, seem to have small graphics, which don't really catch my attention.

Where can I find EOB2 or Cosmic Forge (Wizardry 6)?

[Erik Bauer]

GoG.com sells the "Forgotten Realms: The Archives" collection, that contains EOB 1, 2 and 3

[PaulH]

EOB2 was very good, but Black Crypt is the one that stands out. Great graphics for the time.

Bane of the Cosmic Forge (Wizardry 6) is probably my favourite - gameplay was phased with battles, but great story and loads of items. I have replayed it many times, and still haven't found all the weapons!

I've been busy, but have spent a little time on Return to Skullkeep.

Most games I find, seem to have small graphics, which don't really catch my attention.

Where can I find EOB2 or Cosmic Forge (Wizardry 6)?

Steam, or Amiga/ST emulators, though I ran Wizardry 6 through Dosbox.

[MasterWuuf]

Thanks Erik and Paul.

I purchased all the Might and Magic group from GOG.COM a few years back.
Might and Magic six is probably my favorite (are you seeing this Ameena?), but Might and Magic seven is a very close second.

I played EOB (don't recall which two I played) ages ago, it seems. The one that has the main bad guy turn into a dragon at the end for sure.
I'll probably grab at least the first 'Archive' collection. It's supposed to work on Windows all the way up to 10.
After getting the first one, I'll probably be drawn in, to purchase at least the second one, as well.

I'll have my oldest son check out Steam, since he has an account.

Thanks again, guys. I've been wading through Return to Skullkeep lately.

[Ameena]

Hehe yeah, MMVI is my favourite too - it's so big and admittedly is the one with the most exploits that I know of . Out of VII and VIII I think I might like VIII better, though it is surprisingly short. But you get a wider variety of playable races, some of which (and one in particular) are very cool . But VII has some cool stuff too. Also, it was the first game to introduce Arcomage.

[MasterWuuf]

Ameena said, "Hehe yeah, MMVI is my favourite too - it's so big and admittedly is the one with the most exploits that I know of . Out of VII and VIII I think I might like VIII better, though it is surprisingly short. But you get a wider variety of playable races, some of which (and one in particular) are very cool . But VII has some cool stuff too. Also, it was the first game to introduce Arcomage."

VIII is the only M&M I have not finished (between 6-9).

Nine was depressing for me, when I found out what I had to do to win. And that one god at the end was a knothead.

Arcomage. As I mentioned in a note, I've spent many hours of enjoyment with that game. One of the better games-within-games I've seen.
Someone had too much time on their hands, developing that one, to be sure. Glad they did, to be sure.

[oh_brother]

DM is number 1 for me. CSB also, at least after I finally understood it when I replayed after joining this forum.

But the one thing that I missed was different environments and npcs - the more 'roleplaying' aspects. I was excited when Ishar came out as it had all of these aspects. Wandering around a city for the first time felt amazing, as did walking into a shop or tavern. But there were downsides. You had to pay money to save the game, which I hated. And it was easier to get stuck - with DM my brothers and a good friend were all playing at the same time so we could share tips, but I was the only one who played Ishar.

Ishar.
It was easy to hack champion's inventory for as much coins an potions as you want.

Wish I knew this at the time.

[MasterWuuf]

I looked up Ishar on UTube. I've never played it, but it looks like a young girl with pink hair, along with a bunny rabbit, are the main characters? Naah. I watched a bit of the gameplay. Must be a couple of different ones. The one above? I don't think I'd enjoy that one all that much.

[oh_brother]

No, Ishar was a DM clone - no pink rabbits. Even though I am sure they would have improved the game immensely.

[MasterWuuf]

I've been thinking about some of my experiences with older games.
I guess it might not be in the DM genre, but Bard's Tale (The original) gave me so many hours of enjoyment, the first time through.

Years later, a young kid had the game and asked if I knew anything about it.
I rented the game for about a week, working through it, so I could share what was neat about the game with this 12-13 year old boy.

No fancy graphics and movement, but it was entertainment on a grand scale.

[Ameena]

Ishar had...two games, I think? Maybe three. I remember playing them on the Atari. Had grid-based movement like DM but was set outdoors and had things like forests and towns, and you recruited party members by finding them in a tavern and hoping that a majority of your existing party members voted in favour of them joining.

[terkio]

Yes, exactly.
I liked Ishar 1 and 2.

Ishar 3 was disappointing, nothing new apparently, so I quit.

[MasterWuuf]

Anybody able to find any pictures or videos about 'this' Ishar?
I looked on UTube, but didn't notice anything there. Curious.

[terkio]

https://g.co/kgs/Xn6fhN

[MasterWuuf]

Terkio: I looked it up. Wow! It was like an upgraded Bard's Tale 1. It looks interesting. This is #3. Are the first two available and interesting?
Did anyone mention where this could be downloaded or purchased?

[terkio]

I see it is available on abandonware-france.org for download. Should work with a Windows running DOS box.
There are many other sites compiling old games, giving downloads, to look for Ishar 1/2/3.

https://www.abandonware-france.org/ltf_ ... &fic=liens

[MasterWuuf]

Terkio said, "I see it is available on abandonware-france.org for download. Should work with a Windows running DOS box.
There are many other sites compiling old games, giving downloads, to look for Ishar 1/2/3."

https://www.abandonware-france.org/ltf_ ... &fic=liens

I looked at the abandonware site. The game can be played in four different languages, too. English, by all means, English.

[Ameena]

If you have the Atari emulator "STEEM", you can play it there. The games are available on Atarimania...

http://www.atarimania.com/game-atari-st ... _9657.html
http://www.atarimania.com/game-atari-st ... 25721.html
http://www.atarimania.com/game-atari-st ... _9656.html

Links to all three games for you there. I don't recognise the third one so I must've only played the other two. If you scroll down on each game's page there will also be links to things like game manuals and magazine articles and stuff.

[MasterWuuf]

STEEM. I am at a loss about what to do to 'get' STEEM. I haven't used an emulator for decades. I would actually have to be 'led by the hand' to be able to even use a DOSBOX nowadays.

Perhaps I should be sending out personal notes, rather than placing this type of communication on the forums?

[terkio]

I have used an emulator du run on a PC, the Atari games I enjoyed, and found about all of them on a good site that has tons.
But....I cannot remember the name of the emulator nor the name of the site.
DOS box came later at a time Atari Amiga machines and games were killed by PC games.

Feel free to ask help on emulating old games, I'll try to remember and other forum members will know.
You have emulators for arcade games, MAME is a must.

[Ameena]

Okay, just Googled STEEM for a download link and found the one that I presumably used before (as it's showing purple)...

https://sourceforge.net/projects/steemsse/

Go there and click the big green "download" button to get the emulator. I can't remember if it came with a Read Me file to explain how to use it but it's pretty straightforward. Let me know if you have any problems. As for actual games, go to any of the Ishar links I provided in the previous post, which will take you to the Atarimania site. You can search an immense database of like, every Atari game ever, and download them with just a quick click because the files are so small . For those games that came with a manual or any copy-protection attachment (like the pirate-spinny-wheel thing for Monkey Island), those tend to be on the page for the relevant game as seperate downloads .

[MasterWuuf]

Thanks Ameena.

https://sourceforge.net/projects/steemsse/

I downloaded the emulator. I don't have any games loaded, so that may be the problem, but it tells me I'm missing a driver file.
I'll play around with this for awhile, when I have the time. If I can't seem to figure it out, I'll contact you.

[Ameena]

Ohh actually yeah that rings a bell, I had to get soem file that was called..."pasti.dll", something like that? It had "pasti" in the name anyway because I thought that was a slightly amusing name (it's probably an acronym or something). I think I just had to download it and stick it in the STEEM folder somewhere. There is a Readme file, I just checked, so maybe give that a read. I also found the following tutorial website...

http://steem.atari.st/beginners.htm

But basically, instead of having physical disks that you put into a drive, you download the "disks" as files and drag-and-drop them into the A-drive in the program. Swap disks by just dragging the file out and putting a different one in. You can create new, "blank disks" for saving in much the same way you would create, say, an empty folder in Windows today, if I remember rightly. The program has the ability to do what it calls a "soft reset" (the equivalent of pressing the reset button on a physical Atari) or a "hard reset" (turning it off and on again), as well as a fast-forward button if you want to basically skip any of the unskippable loading times or cutscenes or anything else. And you can bind the joystick directions to your keyboard in order to mimic playing with one of those if you fancy having a go at Magic Pockets or whatever .

[terkio]

Thanks to Ameena, I remember the need for Pasti

Here is, all about Pasti with a link to download Pasti.Dll
http://pasti.fxatari.com/

It says, this Pasti.Dll is a beta version. I recall I found no other version, and it works fine.

[Estoroth]

For me DM and CSB stay number one but I have really enjoyed some Dungeon crawler game as:

_Eye of the Beholder I & II Both game are fantastic (played on Amiga and now on PC), I have buy it again in GOG for a ridiculous price and don't regret my purchase. I have finished both game again and it is always a pleasure to play EOB. The third episode can be forgot, I have buy it on GOG and it clearly not as good that the two previous episodes.

_Black Crypt (Amiga) another of my favorite DM like game. I remember the under water level, very original !

_Captive (Amiga) Very good game too. Forgot Fighter, Wizard, Priest etc.. I have really loved controlling 4 robots in high-tech environment.

_Dungeon Master 2 stay a good game, I remember that my Amiga 500 is too weak for run the game properly, I have playing DM2 many years again when I have a good PC.

_Lands of Lore (PC), I have the floppy, CD Rom and recently buy it again in GOG lol. Cleary we have a before and after Lands of Lore for Dungeon Crawler game style !

Most recent DM like game I have enjoyed:

_Legend of Grimrock I : Excellent game
_Legend of Grimrock II: Excellent game, complex and easy to be lost but clearly not recommended for novices.
_Heroes of Monkey Tavern : I really loved to playing this game, the difficulty is not hard and the game little short but it is a good recommendation for someone would try a modern Dungeon Crawler for the first time.
_Dungeon Of Dragon Knight: Very good Dungeon Crawler mixing old and modern mechanics. I have finished the game and had a lot of pleasure to play.

I have bought VAPORUM and try seriously two time to play till the end but each time I have stopped after some level. The game is very nice but I found the game too repetitive (a door close behind you and you need to defeat enemy for unlock the zone) and not reward so much the player.
I didn't really have the impression of gaining power when I progress through the game. But I think I have do some mistake in my talent tree and the game not allow any reset of the talent point.

I probably forgot to mention a game or two ...

[MasterWuuf]

https://g.co/kgs/Xn6fhN

Late noticing this, but thanks for the information. I went and checked it out. Reminded me of EOB is some of the gameplay.