Best champions - an analytical approach

[jayrshaw]

I like Hissa a lot, too [you can probably tell based on the avatar I've been using here on the Dungeon Master forums]. I used to play a humanoid lizard / snake character in a text-based online RPG I played throughout my later high school and college years, so I always thought it was cool that they included this type of character in Dungeon Master.

My favorite team in Dungeon Master is Hissa, Halk, Stamm, and Sonja because I tend to prefer characters with high starting Strength values - one issue with Hissa I discovered when using this team is that his Maximum Stamina will lag behind the other characters with higher starting Maximum Stamina values. By the end of my last playthrough using the group I just described, Hissa was the only character who finished with less than 999 Maximum Stamina....


--Jay

[pjs]

I had never become used stat buffing. I tried it while playing DM with Syra and Chani. I started by buffing wisdom in level 2/3 whenever the mana was starting to hit the maximum. Later, when there was excess mana, I also buffed strength. I didn't try to buff the other stats, they seemed to be less essential. The result was that I never even slept after level 2/3, I just kept on using the regenerating mana. Obviously, the stats weren't enough for very heavy use of fireballs, but in most cases the swords and axes worked just as well. In the end, the champions were expert except adept at priest. (I didn't bother training that much just for the sake of it.)

I have also been using the similar strategy in CSB (two reincarnated champions, initial skill buffing done with the mummies and rock piles in the prison). IIRC the only location I slept after the prison was with the place with all the dragons and illusionary walls.

[Thorham]

If your mana pools aren't high enough to support buffing all of the buffable stats to the level I just described, I would just layer the buffs until each stat reaches 120+ and then refresh the buffs when the stats begin falling into the ~100 to ~110 range.

I'll probably just stick to strength. Take the brute force approach.

This should be far easier to maintain because buff potions are much more effective if the stat you are buffing is below 120....

And there's also the need for some fire balls. Perhaps best to stick to two stats. Seems enough anyway.

[jayrshaw]

Yeah - being used to having characters with really high Maximum Mana levels leaves me a bit unsure of how difficult it is to maintain various levels of buffs with lower Maximum Mana levels. Regardless, if you actually plan to go toe-to-toe with any dangerous enemies, it may still be a good idea to use Dexterity buffs [in addition to Shield spells/potions] prior to doing so.....


--Jay

[slickrcbd]

I tend to prefer stronger champions because I'm a packrat and hoarder. Both in-game and in real life.
Also I've noticed that champions like Tiggy, Gando, and Wu Tse tend to be rather fragile even later in the dungeons, such that they can be 1-hit-ko by a mummy, trollin, rockpile, scorpion, or magenta worm even when I've worked on their fighter and ninja levels. I don't even need to mention couatls. Chani and Boris can also be fragile. I tend to avoid those five for that reason.
Then again, I favor the ones with the highest carrying capacity due to my packrat nature.

[aster]

I must say that throughout the many times that I've done a full run of the game, I don't think I have ever chosen a different (main) character than Zed. Maybe once I dropped in Layla or Syra for company, but overall I prefer to just run a one-man team.

Even when I tell myself that next time I will do my first run with 4 players... I end up selecting Zed and going in alone. From a numbers-viewpoint I don't think any of the all-round characters are bad (the OP mentioned 5 of them) so if you go in with just a single character you might as well stick to one of them.

Oh yeah, the fountain room near the Rat Room is a pretty common "safe spot" for most people, I think, being how it's got easy access to water, food, and the Central Stairwell.

Interesting. I've always wondered where people "deposit all their belongings for storage" and for me it has always been in that room that generates living watermelons (screamers). Is the fountain room near the Rat Room a better location when it comes to getting back there more frequently? Any other hidden gems in terms of safe rooms with edible creatures generated nearby?

Yeah - the next time I play through this game, I should probably consider whether I actually need to hoard so much stuff, myself (or carry as much as I normally do in my characters' inventories).....

I've done the same many times, telling myself that the next time I won't be bothered collecting so much stuff... and then I hoard it all anyway. The next time I'm hoping to at least limit myself when it comes to my main weapon and armour to at least not lug around more than I can use/wear in combat. Maybe this would be a good thread to start on the forums: "Best weapon+armour combo"

The ending in the SNES version of the game isn't bad - the ending sequence shows maps of the various floors of the dungeon rotating in the background

I assume it shows hidden places as well, even if the player didn't manage to access them before completing the game? If so this makes me wonder how many players back then could have reverse-engineered level maps from this, allowing them to discover new areas the next time they played...

[MasterWuuf]

Aster said: Interesting. I've always wondered where people "deposit all their belongings for storage" and for me it has always been in that room that generates living watermelons (screamers). Is the fountain room near the Rat Room a better location when it comes to getting back there more frequently? Any other hidden gems in terms of safe rooms with edible creatures generated nearby?

I think this is the best place. After opening some places up, this is easy to get to quickly, you have plenty of space to drop extra junk, the water fountain is right there, plus the rat-room is easy to visit for plenty of food. I always use a skeleton key for the hall around the corner; quick access to upper levels and the wing key gives access to the lowest levels.

[jayrshaw]

I didn't really get a chance to scrutinize the dungeon maps which are shown during the ending of the SNES version of the game - you don't get to see each map for very long, so if you wanted to look at them carefully, you would probably have to record the ending sequence so you can pause on each of the maps.....


--Jay

[ChristopheF]

This page http://dmweb.free.fr/?q=node/934 has both the maps shown during the SNES ending and the actual dungeon maps.

[jayrshaw]

Thank you for posting the link, Christophe. Like you mention in your notes, the maps which display in the game's ending sequence do not seem to be entirely accurate - however, it's still neat to see the maps of the floors rotating around once you complete the game.


--Jay

[aster]

Merci Christophe, great link! As mentioned above it's interesting that the level maps from the end sequence aren't 100% representative of the actual levels, but if someone was able to film them then this would have been a great resource when playing the game all over again.

I think this is the best place. After opening some places up, this is easy to get to quickly, you have plenty of space to drop extra junk, the water fountain is right there, plus the rat-room is easy to visit for plenty of food. I always use a skeleton key for the hall around the corner; quick access to upper levels and the wing key gives access to the lowest levels.

So the rat place is preferable to the screamer room overall? I used to store all my belongings in the screamer room so the next time I play will be the first time I switch to the rat place. Now if only I could figure out what I actually need to carry (and what to dump and forget about) then the game would be so much easier...

[Ameena]

Yeah the Rat Room is just a bit more accessible, as you can use a skelly key to open the Central Stairwell right around the corner, assuming you've been finding the other keys to open other levels too, to more easily get back there. The Central Stairwell only goes up to Level Eight, so from there you'd have to backtrack through the previous couple of levels as well (a pretty straightforward route, at least) in order to get back to the Screamer Room. Rat drumsticks are way better food, as well (and the rats themselves will give better exp for fighting them, as they are deeper in the dungeon which means there is a higher exp multiplier).
Note that if you're not aware, there is one too few skelly keys to open the entire stairwell. I tend to skip Level Twelve because sod going back there once I've got the Master Key .

[Ian Clark]

Nowadays, I tend to play with just one character and complete a lengthy training session in the Screamer room (around Expert in all 4 abilities). With only one character to feed, I find that the food scattered around the dungeon is more than enough so very rarely use the rat room.

[Ameena]

I tend to play with two characters but still loot pretty much all the food I find (except worm rounds), eating cheese first because it's the heaviest, so by the time I finish the game I'm still working through my screamer slices and have had to leave a pile of dead dragon on the floor when it fell . Last time I played I was skipping most of the non-food loot because I know I never use it. And then got to the Riddle Room on Level Six and realised I'd skipped the bow or something and had to go back and get it (yes, I know you don't have to solve all the riddles, but I like to anyway).

[aster]

Rat drumsticks are way better food, as well (and the rats themselves will give better exp for fighting them, as they are deeper in the dungeon which means there is a higher exp multiplier).
...
Note that if you're not aware, there is one too few skelly keys to open the entire stairwell. I tend to skip Level Twelve because sod going back there once I've got the Master Key .

Good point, the drumsticks were always a more valuable source of food I remember, much better than the watermelons (screamer slices!).

I need to relearn all the keys before going back in, but if there's any level I would prefer not to go back to it's probably L7 with all the ghosts and that huge open space!

Nowadays, I tend to play with just one character and complete a lengthy training session in the Screamer room (around Expert in all 4 abilities). With only one character to feed, I find that the food scattered around the dungeon is more than enough so very rarely use the rat room.

That's always been my place to camp out and develop my character before moving on, especially since creatures start to get quite nasty soon afterwards. But I'm starting to think whether that should be done deeper down for more XP when fighting creatures, as Ameena mentioned above.

[slickrcbd]

Personally I think you should do both.
Do a bit of training in the Screamer Room when you pass by it, then when you are done with level 5 (or 4 if you are starting from zero. I had the hint book and it has you start on level 1 with the screamer room on level 4 and the rat room on level 9) use the shutcut back to the screamer room to at least clean it out and fill up on screamer slices before proceeding to level 6. That might be a good idea to punch the screamers to death to work on ninja levels.
Once you've done that quick clearing of the screamer room, forget about it and use the rat room from then on.
That's actually how I do things most of time. I don't do a lot of grinding in those rooms, but I do make a point to clear the room when I pass by, then pass by again after finishing the next level to stock up on food (and don't forget to fill up on water at the fountain).

[aster]

When picking a champion is it more important to select one according to:
- the three base stats: health+stamina+mana
- strength+dex+wisdom

Which is better, especially in the long run?

[jayrshaw]

Differences in the characters' starting Mana and (especially) Health tend not to matter a very great deal at higher levels. All of the characters will gain a ton of Maximum Health and Mana as they gain levels, and these gains are not based upon the character's current Maximum Health or Mana.

Maximum Stamina gains, on the other hand, are based on a character's current Maximum Stamina; because of this, higher starting Maximum Stamina tends to matter more than starting Maximum Mana and Health.

If I had to choose, I would say that Strength, Wisdom, and Stamina are the three most important stats to focus on, although the others are also worth considering.


--Jay

[aster]

Many thanks, I'm going to sift through the champions list and see if any single character stands out in this regard. Based on this info it seems that Zed might not be the best all-round pick after all...

Would you look at Dexterity too or just the Strength+Wisdom+Stamina trio?

[jayrshaw]

The problem is that the Champions with high Strength tend not to have high Wisdom. You can basically max out a character's Wisdom using Dane Potion buffs, though [especially if you optimize your stat gains when your characters gain levels]. A lot of characters have both high Strength and Stamina, though, and many of those characters also have decent Dexterity.


--Jay

[aster]

I just did an anonymous look at all the characters (sometimes I like one where the picture suits me - after all, we're going to be together for over a dozen underground levels... ), and truth be told there are TWO worth considering.

And all this by just looking at the numbers, so as I type I still don't know which Champions I'm writing about.

My main aim was to follow your guidance as to STA/STR/WIS and make sure that the only characters I consider are at least as strong in those aspects as "Benchmark Zed," who is the standard 60/40/40 guy in this case. Though I did allow a slight exception if a Champion was just 1-2 points off in one area but more than made up for it elsewhere...

So after tallying up the digits I'm going to check who it is that I'm actually looking at... drum roll please...

And the winner is... Azizi Johari (Female):
STA-77 STR-47 WIS-42 DEX-48

With the runner up: Sonja She Devil (Female)
STA-70 STR-54 WIS-39 DEX-45

[jayrshaw]

Yeah - I have previously observed that Azizi has really solid stats, but I never actually used her during a playthrough before. Sonja is also really good (to the extent that I don't think I have ever attempted a playthrough without her in my group).

During my last playthrough, I used Hissa, Halk, Sonja, and Stamm because I wanted the characters who would have the easiest time carrying a lot of weight around. I recall that Hissa struggled with his Stamina falling behind the other characters, who all reached 999 Stamina by the time I had finished the playthrough. I did train my characters to higher than normal levels, and I don't think any of the characters will hit 999 Stamina during a playthrough where you end at more typical levels.


--Jay

[aster]

Those are some strong characters indeed. Considering Hissa's stamina is 61 and Layla's is 60, is there any reason only Hissa struggled with achieving high stamina and not Layla?

There are only four characters with all three crucial stats (STA/STR/WIS) equal or higher than Zed's (60/40/40):
- Iaido (65/43/40)
- Nabi (65/41/45)
- Leyla (60/40/45)
- Azizi (77/47/42)

If we assume that even 61 stamina is not good enough and we need 70+ then that leaves only Azizi out of the four. And she has the highest strength among this group as well.

But here I would be tempted to consider Sonja with her 39 wisdom (she missed the list by a single point!) as her stamina is 70 and she is quite strong at 54. That actually makes her the 3rd strongest character in the game after Hissa and Halk.

Since completing the game decades ago I've only done subsequent runs with just 1-2 players, never a full set of four. So I'm trying to pick the best all-rounder (or two) that can handle everything and has no weaknesses.

I admit I am a bit of a hoarder in this game and won't leave any interesting items behind, instead storing them in chests (and large piles!) and then moving all items from one accessible location to another as I delve deeper into the dungeon. And few things bother me as much in this game as an overloaded character.

[jayrshaw]

I didn't have Leyla in the group. Halk, Sonja, and Stamm all have higher starting Stamina than Hissa.

If you are willing to use buffs, I would err on the side of sacrificing Wisdom for better Strength, Stamina, and Dexterity - even the characters with the lowest starting Wisdom can maximize their mana recovery rate if you use Dane potion buffs and maximize their Wisdom gains when they gain Wizard / Healer levels.


--Jay

[aster]

Sorry, my mistake, I thought I saw Layla and I should have noticed that she doesn't fit in...

Is there any way of maximising a character's wisdom gains? Does consuming the Dane potion or wearing the Crown Of Nerra give you a slightly higher Wisdom gain if you gain level at that time?

[jayrshaw]

You basically just save before gaining a Healer or Wizard level and make sure you gain 1 Wisdom point for each Healer level and 2 Wisdom points for each Wizard level. If you do this and train 10 levels of each, each of your characters will end up with 30 more Wisdom points than he/she started out with. You can also get a few extra stat points when you initially Reincarnate your characters.


--Jay

[aster]

Many thanks. Saving and making sure the "dice" roll your way is the best way to max out those stats. I just thought that maybe the current wisdom level was factored into the equation somehow, hence my thoughts of using items like the Crown of Nerra to "inflate" it before advancing a level.

I'm starting to think that maybe Sonja is in fact the best character in the game as compared to Azizi you do get the strength (at 54 it makes her the 3rd strongest Champion in the game!), stamina is still solid at 70, and the last four stats (vitality, anti-magic, anti-fire, load) are ALL higher than Azizi's.

Now the dilemma of whether I should use one or two characters for my upcoming dungeon run, which might be slightly harder as my last one was over a decade ago (boy, time really does fly) so I won't be breezing through it all but rather taking a trip down memory lane and relying on maps as if this was a road trip before GPS navigation became a thing.

[jayrshaw]

Well, good luck - a run with just Sonja and Azizi could actually be fun now that I'm thinking about it....


--Jay

[aster]

Yeah, on a lighter note it would look like two characters that just ditched their jobs at a strip joint and decided to go treasure hunting instead.

Plus it would be a good way to compare the two as they both progress through the levels. Now I need to plan out how to equip them (main weapon + full body kit) as I only had that planned out for one Champion. And there is only one Mithral Aketon, one Mithral mail, etc. So I guess the aim is to get the stronger one (Sonja) into the full Lyte gear...

[jayrshaw]

That comment about the strip joint is pretty hilarious...


--Jay