Freedungeon

[gusnan]

I have seen quite some talk here on these forums about some of you wanting a
free Dungeon Master clone - so I want to try take make one (and I have wanted
this for quite some time, but have had a long pause from it).

But I have now started on freedungeon - I will release the source under
GPL3, and will accept graphics under free licenses. Creative Commons seems
to be a good candidate:

https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/4.0/

So if anybody would like to provide graphics or help out with the coding,
please make yourself heard here.

I have a tiny proof of concept, Windows executable with all required DLLs
included, downloadable from here:

https://www.gusnan.se/freedungeon/freedungeon.zip

- It does use the Dungeon Master graphics however, this is what I would like
to replace, and this is where YOU come in.

I will make the source code available on Github. It uses the Allegro 5.2
library, scipted using Lua5.4 (all included in the zip above). The goal is
to make it pretty much all scriptable using Lua.

Not that this is very early in development, and maybe not very much to see yet.

[Sphenx]

Hi gusnan, there are some free clones around here, but that's always nice to see someone starting such project.
I appreciate that you did get appropriate side walls regarding the brick sizes.
Is this coded in Lua as base language ?
What would be your objective(s) with this clone ?

[gusnan]

Hi gusnan, there are some free clones around here, but that's always nice to see someone starting such project.
I appreciate that you did get appropriate side walls regarding the brick sizes.

Please note that the graphics are only place-holders.

Is this coded in Lua as base language ?

C++ as base, but with Lua embedded.

What would be your objective(s) with this clone ?

To make it free as in free speech (as in the Free Software sense), and distributable. This means both free software, but I would like the people who would like to contribute assets to also make these available under a "free" license. And for that I believe the mentioned creative commons license would be good.

I haven't uploaded this to github, because the graphics is (obviously) based on the original Dungeon Master, and I believe those assets aren't free in any way. (even if they are used in very many places).

I would like to make this with assets that are free and can be re-used and also modified (as in the Creative Commons license CC-BY-SA), which really disqualifies the original graphics. That's why I haven't pushed that to the github repo, but what's there is only place-holders. This would make it possible for other projects to use the same assets (which would of course also apply to the source code).

So, in short - a clone which is fully free in the free software sense of the word.

[Sphenx]

ok I understand about the free software. Then you need to replace quite everything. Is your clone supposed to be compatible with original DM ? or are you making your own "game", more like Dungeon Master Java did years ago ?
Anyway, feel free to ask, I'm interested to see your project going forward

[Gambit37]

It's always good to see new projects like this. But as someone who's been on these forums for decades and seen many similar announcements, I doubt you'll be able to get anyone to make the graphics for your entire game for free.

Everybody here is too old for that with too many other responsibilities, and even if we had the time, we'd want to be paid for our efforts.

Realistically, you'll need to roll up your sleeves and find a way to create the graphics yourself.

[gusnan]

Your thoughts are noted. I still think that people can get together and help out in a project like this (it works just fine when it comes to software - see the whole free software movement, why not the same in artwork?)

And then there's the community aspect - If the artwork is licensed properly it still gives the proper credit to it's authors. (And I of course want proper credit for all contributed assets). As it is now, the original Dungeon Master graphics is used in a heck of a lot of clones.What is the license of that? I guess it's still copyrighted to the original creators? Wouldn't it be better if all those clones used graphics that there are no legal questions about? I understand that one is most probably safe using it, but still?

[gusnan]

I got some questions in a PM, and I guess it would be good to have those answers to also here:

Since I haven't done much at all yet, the artistic direction is very much up for debate, and the people helping out this early of course has a lot to say and can help out forming the direction. Actually my source takes the original graphics and resizes it to a required size of the window. In what I uploaded I believe I just doubled the oirginal DM size to 640x480, while in my new version ( not uploaded yet) I have actually doubled the resolution of the DM graphics so I can add more details.

My thought is to keep the graphics relatively low resolution, so the game can run on as many (and old) computers as possible. And let's say 640x400 / 640x480 is still very low-res nowadays, right?

But I want to make this in other senses relatively close to the original Dungeon Master.

And if I don't get help from other people, I will add the assets myself, which will not look good, but it will of course have to do - to be able to license it in a way required for the project.

[Gambit37]

I admire your enthusiasm, I really do. We all had the same twenty years ago when these forums were young. I'm not saying it can't be done, but the history of DM clones with good, freely contributed art is, well, not a good advert for success. It's just that I want you to be realistic about what is achievable from this community: we're all rather old now and those of us who have a creative imperative have already contributed a huge amount to a vast array of closed and open source projects. They take years and there's little reward. (I've tried to update DM graphics myself and it's a big old project that I've paused multiple times due to life commitments. See this thread for some history about that, including screenshots).

Your best bet is to find young artists who love vintage games, who have plenty of time and no other responsibilities, and who are willing to work for free. I'm sorry to say that you probably won't find a person like that here, but you may find them in the wider indie game developer scene. I wish you good luck and every success, it really would be cool to see a new clone with polished old-school graphics.

By the way, have you checked out DSB? It's pretty awesome and is probably the best clone with the most flexible engine. I imagine you could learn a lot from it.

[gusnan]

I admire your enthusiasm, I really do. We all had the same twenty years ago when these forums were young. I'm not saying it can't be done, but the history of DM clones with good, freely contributed art is, well, not a good advert for success. It's just that I want you to be realistic about what is achievable from this community: we're all rather old now and those of us who have a creative imperative have already contributed a huge amount to a vast array of closed and open source projects. They take years and there's little reward.

Well, that's kinda my point. The argument is often "Why should I contribute to a project without pay?" - But people already do that (obviously). If you would release the graphics under some license that would allow it, it _would_ get used somewhere, and not bitrot in some unfinished project that no-one have seen for ages.

(I've tried to update DM graphics myself and it's a big old project that I've paused multiple times due to life commitments. See this thread for some history about that, including screenshots).

Looks great!
But to me it's sad that it just lies there to bitrot.

Sorry for being blunt - but the argument is VERY often "Why should I help, without getting paid?" - Many of you already DO exactly that, don't you? My point is that, in this way, the graphics _has a possibility_ to get used somewhere. And if you license it with the right license, you WILL get credit. There is a risk that people use the graphics without giving proper credits, but that's no difference from copyrighted material, is there? If licensed under the right Creative Commons license, you will get credit.

[Ameena]

I think what Gambit is saying is that back a couple of decades ago when these forums were a lot busier, there were a lot of people trying to do their own thing, making clones and dungeons and stuff, but nothing ever really got super far along in terms of big remakes or whatever. We have clones like RTC, CSBWin, and DSB, and some really big custom dungeons like Conflux, but I don't recall any fully-made big dungeons with entirely custom graphics and such. I imagine it is a lot of work and people may not have the time for it along with whatever else they have going on in their lives. And now it's like, twenty years later and a lot of people have moved on or just had other stuff come up - look how quiet the forums are now compared to how they used to be.
I helped a bit with some dungeons back in the day but that was writing, not graphics (I wrote the Hint Oracle hints for Conflux, and the backstory for one or two other dungeons).

[Gambit37]

Yep, that's a lot of it: no one here has the time for what you've asked for, gusnan.
Plus, your post does sound a lot like many hundreds of others I've seen over the years, both professionally and for fun: "I have a great idea, but need others to do the work!"

Are you just an ideas man, with nothing to back it up? If not, and you really are going to see this through, then you'll need to put your money where your mouth is and do the work. Or make a compelling enough case to others that they will be prepared to invest a huge amount of their time into your project for free. And that's only going to happen if you give them a big incentive to do so. OSS might work for projects where everyone involved benefits from it, and others can pick it up and use it, but a niche game like this is just a passion project and you can't expect others to come on board and give you hundreds of hours of free art at the outset. People need an incentive and so far you haven't given one.

...the argument is VERY often "Why should I help, without getting paid?" - Many of you already DO exactly that, don't you?

The difference is that when many of us already do that, it's because it's a hobby that we do for fun, for ourselves. But that's not what you're doing: you're seeking free labour. Nobody here who started their own project ever asked for others to do most of the work...

[gusnan]

The difference is that when many of us already do that, it's because it's a hobby that we do for fun, for ourselves. But that's not what you're doing: you're seeking free labour. Nobody here who started their own project ever asked for others to do most of the work...

Come on - Of course I would help out with graphics too in my own project. What makes you think this isn't for fun for me? I don't know what gives you that impression. I get pretty insulted that you assume that my reasons for going into this is just to get free labour. My project is meant to be collaborative, and every contribution would of course be properly credited. You can of course interpret what I have written as you like, but for me it would be a collaborative project.

[edit]and in addition to that I will provide code (and already have) - but I assume that has no value at all to you?[/edit]

[Gambit37]

I made no assumptions about whether it's fun for you or not... I would hope that it is, otherwise what's the point!?

I didn't respond to this to have a fight with you. I wanted to highlight several issues with your original plan and the way you approached it. If you can get free art for your project through a collaborative effort and everyone contributing is happy, then that's great: I will be very happy for you and will of course support it. Just don't expect it to be an easy ride. And don't be surprised if potential contributors ask for an incentive -- which you still haven't provided. Offering credit is meaningless on a project that no-one knows about. How are you going to create awareness for this, and ensure that contributors get something back for their efforts? Something more than their name on a readme.md in a dead repo on Github? Yes, I'm being snarky, but you really gotta think about this stuff up front, otherwise your game is dead in the water before it's begun.

By the way, do give some thought to platform portability. Locking yourself in to Windows is likely a mistake, given the state of Microsoft at present.