Sample Dungeons

[George Gilbert]

When the dungeon format is released I intend to include in with it a bunch of sample dungeons (similar to the map test or zoo). The idea behind this is to allow you to compare what goes into a dungeon format file and what you actually get - basically demonstrating how certain types of object work.

My question is therefore - what sort of things do you want to see how to do? The DM and CSB dungeons cover most things but is there either anything else, or anything so important in DM/CSB that it needs highlighting by putting into it's own dungeon?

[beowuuf]

Personally, just a very simple one with minila things to instantly see what is going on would be cool. One champion mirror, a toggled graphic switch/level opening the blocking door to a room with an example of a torch holder, switching alcove like the iron key one in the riddle room, and a two lever opening one door bit.
Then, on another level a tiny room with a monster showing all the different abilities (non-corp, floater, intrinsic (random number) objects, carrying object, objects stick in it, etc) and a des-ew shooter.
And this level could have normal darkness so we can compare it to the starting light one.
Oh, and maybe there could be copied here the four opening pits that are at the end of level 12 too?

You did say the dungeon puzzles were based on 6 basic objects...maybe just examples of the rest if the above doesn't fully cover it too?

[Big-J-Q]

I agree with Beowuuf, all we need is a simple demonstration of how things work, since all the complex puzzle are based on the simple basics (are they?).

I'd also add a couple of sample hints to be used in hint oracle.

I'd suggest you create a 2-3 level mini-adventure which includes all the basics. Forget about challenge and intrigue, just a little adventure, a "kid dungeon".

[amaprotu]

I think Beowuuf is right. A simple dungeon with lots of little things in it would be great.

I think you also said multiple wall graphics per level would be allowed? Some example of this might be nice too, if it exists.

I may be straying but will releasing the dungeon format also allow us to incorporate our own graphics into the dungeons etc. or is more required for that?

[Zyx]

Same as above, plus, if necessary, samples of devices/mechanisms not manageable with orignal DM/Dmute.
Are there events managements?
I'd like to see one or two samples of conditionned speaking pads. (Text appears only if handling an object for example)
Also, if there are some new combinations of tiles, I'd like to have a clue (like pit+door on the same tile?)
Also, a sample of mechanism working on several levels.
(i.e., a pad activating a pit in the level above)

[twinfalls]

I would like to see a review on all different cases for a pad acting on a door.

[Gambit37]

In answer to one of your poinst, Zyx, any active object can activate objects on any other level directly - you don't have to teleport rocks around like you would in DM or CSB.

[George Gilbert]

Yes, every object is labeled with a unique ID number and any triggering references use that ID. For example a pressure pad might have the following line associated with it:

ACTIVATE TARGET=(1234)

which will mean that the object with ID 1234 will be activated. The engine doesn't care *where* that object is.

In particular objects are no longer targeted by the tile that they're on - this is probably the biggest difference to get used to for those of you that "think DM" as a result of looking through how puzzles work as a result of DMute (or any other favourite editor of your choice...of course).

[Zyx]

About the objects pointing to an ID, it's cool because mechanisms are independent from their location or position, so zones could be easily moved or copied.
But what about teleporters then?
Also, there are some cases in which it was convenient to have a "zone pointing".
For example, in the riddle room (level 5?), each alcove points to a tile with 2 counter pads.
The first one get activated with 4 counters, the 2nd with 5 five, I think.
So how did you solve this in RTC, George? Did you have to duplicate each alcove or is there another way?

[Gambit37]

There's a few extra objects in RTC for controlling this sort of thing (counters, etc), so it's easy to do....

[beowuuf]

Don't forget that you can have multiple targets in RTC...so each alcove is actually triggering both counter objects at the same time (it's working in the reverse of DM infact!).

[amaprotu]

What is the range for IDs? Can they be alphanumeric?
It would be really nice if they could because then complete puzzles could be made and 'taged' so they fit into any dungeon without conflicts. For instance I could start all my IDs with ama so my puzzles could use components with IDs ama0001 etc. Then when Beowuuf made his dungeon with all beoxxxx tags, and he wanted to use my dual alsoce picture frame shopping set, he could put it in there without worry of numbers overlapping. On small puzzles this might not be a problem, but larger puzzles....

[Gambit37]

Nope - they're numeric only and must be sequential so what you're suggesting wouldn't work. However, if you're clever about how you number items there's no reason why copying and pasting blocks of data shouldn't be an easy task.

You can have up to 99,999 items in the dungeon which is more than enough for even the most deranged of dungeon designers.

[amaprotu]

they have to be sequential? Ouch. It would have been really nice to allow for even some alphanumeric characters. Even on intra dungeon design (not sharing dungeon peices) it would make it easier to work with if I could id all the peices of my "store" puzzle with stoxxxx at the begining or something. If they have to be sequential I can't even keep the puzzles numbered by the floor I'm putting them on ( 01xxxx for first floor etc.) Of course I have not seen the actual format of the dungeons so my hope is it's not as bad as it sounds.

But even so alpha numeric IDs would be nice. =/

[beowuuf]

They don't have to be sequential, and I think the numbering limits (not item) may be removed, so there is nothing to stop stupidly high numbers from being used as 'module' IDs. We can always mention what numbers we are using here, and everyone can grab their own little 1000 block somewhere for interesting set pieces like shops.
I want 50,000-59,999 : )

[amaprotu]

I will be new to dungeon editing basically with RTC. I only messed with DMute a little, and that just real recently. So I had a couple of general questions.

1) In general about how many objects go into a dungeon? (how many are in DM? Was there a limit in DM?)

2) Is it going to be different in RTC? I mean, does it take more or less or about the same number of items to implement the DM dungeon in RTC than it did in the original? (since I know some things were done differently).

I thought I had more and better questions when I pressed the reply button but I guess I don't.

Oh yeah, hey George, when ya gonna release this all wonderful editing capable RTC version?

I call 60,000 to 69,000 then Beowuuf.

- Amaprotu

[Gambit37]

The RTC version of the DM dungeon is about 3300 items, but the range of ID numbers goes from 1 to about 7500. So you can see that George has left large gaps between various bits and pieces so that they are more easily identifable. You can also comment the code to make it easier to find bits and pieces...

I don't know what the limits were in DM or how many objects it used.

Beowuuf, you misunderstood my comment about seqeuntial numbering, but that's fair enough as I used the word incorrectly. What I meant was this: the file must use numbers that *ascend* in series, but the don't have to be consecutive. So for example, you can't define item number 90 before item number 80. But there's nothing stopping you from leaving gaps between chunks of data.

[George Gilbert]

In brief reply:

- RTC-DM uses around 3500 items with an upper limit of 100,000, PC-DM uses around 3500 items with an upper limit of around 3600. Similar stats apply for CSB but with a total of about 4000 and upper limit of 4100 (the difference in upper limits between DM and CSB is the reason why DMute can't save the CSB dungeon into a DM save file).

- RTC does implement some puzzles differently however some use more items than DM, some less - over the entire dungeon it works out fairly evenly.

- The restriction on ascending numbering only applied to NewDM (I think); RTC doesn't care what the numbers are, but the ordering of the items (i.e. their line number in the dungeon definition file) is important (objects which appear below others on the same tile, need to be specified first).

- As for when all this is coming out, the quick answer is when I get a chance to; I'll probably release CSB (as part of V0.16)in a couple of weeks, and the full editor March-ish. I'm somwhat busy at work for the next month or two, but have a few free weekends after then!

[beowuuf]

The .dat format is actually dynamic though and allows more items to be placed (i think 1024 per category) if you edit the raw hex. Guillaume Bastard uploaded the whole CSB dungeon (in PC DM format!) on the file shares forums of the DM Encyclopaedia if you weant to see this. : )

[chiefy]

so in the case of defining a wooden door that releases with a button, should the frame go first or the door, or is the order in which they're documented irrelevant to the result ?

some of my doors don't look like they're actually in the slot of the frame rather they look as if behind the frame or too small for it

[George Gilbert]

Things (usually - there are some exceptions) get drawn in the order that they appear in the dungeon text file (not the order of the item numbers). So in the text file, you should put the frame first, then the button, then the door (i.e. so the door appears on-top).