NEW CONTEST!!! How good are you at DM?

[+Lucky Charms]

Okay, it's like this: the problem I have with most RPG's is there's this ability to make your characters superhuman tough by fighting low-level monsters over and over again (or by throwing daggers at the wall 300 times so that you become an Adept Ninja). And everybody wants to do this because it's fun (even though it's boring) and because it makes the game easier and makes you feel like you're better at the game because you don't die so fast. Also it's fun to have the best characters possible (don't tell me you wouldn't like to have your party up to Archmaster Everything). Well if you haven't figured it out, all this takes is a lot of time, and not really too much thinking.

Sooooo . . . if you're really good at DM, you'll be able to finish with the absolute weakest characters possible, right? But of course nobody wants to choose crappy guys, and it's way to easy to run away from all the monsters and skip all of level eight, and half of level 3, etc. - so I came up with these rules for a contest open to all:

1) Your objective is to finish DM with the lowest number of levels between all of your characters. Obviously some ways of playing the game will get you a lower score (we'll have to see which ones).

2) You can choose any four, and I repeat four characters you like. It's easy to finish the game with one character, and everybody knows it . . . they get all the good armour, there's no food shortages, they're the only one getting better - there's even less monsters (I think!).

3) You have to reincarnate your characters (so that everybody's at least sort of equal).

4) You must get every object in the game that you can (obviously open only one of the four turquoise key doors). These are to be deposited only at the tops and bottoms of staircases . . . "prove I didn't pick up the rope and put it back down because it's so much faster just to jump down the bloody pit". Of course if you have to drop an object to close a pit, open a door . . . it's forgivable. But watch it!

5) Getting every object means that you pretty much have to go everywhere. But to include all cases . . . you must open every secret passage, open every door you can, solve every puzzle, turn off the fireballs, open 5 skeleton staircase entrances, etc.

6) You gotta kill every monster you see/know about. This includes the dragon (not so easy with non-superhumans) and also every monster you happen to generate with your clumsy footsteps (maybe this makes it too hard for places like level 8, but you're all experts, right?).

7) I recommend you use all the cheap tricks you can besides DMute. If you use DMute to cheat you are a DMajor CSBoinker (for this contest only, don't worry!!!). This includes DMute maps . . . you should know the game inside out . . . and also any maps you might have made. But slam those doors on those goddamn worms or you'll never make it out alive.

No exploitation of bugs in the game . . . obviously these things aren't meant to happen (but I can't think of any right now). Oh yeah - for example: the lights don't go out in the ST version (or at least 99.5% of them) and obviously this makes the game a lot easier so lets all play the Amiga one (so the characters can be ported). Plus the Amiga version is the best one. PC is OK though (but I don't know how it plays).

9) Post your results here along with your score at the end of each level. I guess for the final evaluation (right before you zap Chaos) the savegames should be checked with DMute but we all trust each other, right?

10) If you're a real keener try and finish ALL of CSB with the same characters (good luck - especially on the Ful Ya Pit level!).

If you have any suggestions, comments, think I'm a bit of a weirdo with a good hour to kill on a Thursday night . . . let it out! I was thinking about trying this ever since I read that the record for finishing Final Fantasy V in Japan was Party Level = 9 (which is pretty damn impressive). I really hope people want to participate - superhuman DM is a bit stale, innit? So let's see who can get the lowest score and still meet the 'do everything' requirements.

I got through level 2 (HOC = Level 1) with a score of . . . ZERO! (not hard at all).

Cheers,

Lucky Charms (mailto:cpicke@po-box.mcgill.ca)

[+Toufman]

Interesting contest...

However, I have two comments about your idea...

First, it's almost impossible to kill EVERY monsters on some particular levels. It's possible on level 8 (I did it several times) but on level 4, even with all doors bashed up, some worms and screamers reincarnate in specific places (and you avoid that). Idem on level 11 with cavern monsters and water elementals...

Second, I play DM on a real Atari and in several cracked versions but I've never saw lights staying on...Maybe a bug due to emulation ? And the Amiga is soooo easy compared to the ST version...

Cheers

[+Birdie]

I played ST version only on Pacifist and it seems ST version is easier (lights don't go off). Amiga version is easier in recognizing picked items because of colour mouse pointer

[+Lucky Charms]

I don't really mind that much which version people want to play - I'd rather they play than not play

I said that the Atari version was mostly 'lights on' because I assumed most people play DM using PaCifiST or something and I've never seen the lights go out. But I'm not really an expert here. So if the lights go out, fine.

Another reason for suggesting Amiga as a standard is that everyone would be playing the same thing (if the Atari version really is harder) and results would be completely intercomparable.

As for killing monsters . . . I think a lot of generators can be avoided/only stepped on once. But I'm not saying to actively hunt down all monsters you might have generated. Certainly, however, kill all the pre-assigned ones (like both golems on the firestaff level). And I guess saying that the rat room on level 9 has to be empty is kind of silly because I think you have to step on the generator to get away from there (and how are you meant to know where generators are unless you look at DMute, which is unencouraged because it ruins the fun of actually _playing_ the game . . . no matter what you say). I made this rule up so that people don't start running away from every monster they see so as not to gain any levels. That's all. I could probably get through (and do everything on) levels 2,5,7, and 14 without killing anything at all!

So are you guys gonna play? Come on . . .

Cheers

[+Halk Wonderbarbarian]

If the point of the game is to not gain any levels, whats the point in having to kill every enemy? look at it this way- if everyone did this and killed every enemy then whoever got the lowest party levels would just be down to luck really (if the exp system is based on random values, which i think it must be).Unless you cheat somehow theres no way you can do this without ending up with superhuman characters. I think. Final Fantasy 5 would be easier because you only get exp for combat, which you can avoid.

[+Lucky Charms]

well i thought about it a bit, and it actually would make it harder if you didn't have to kill all the monsters - you're going to get surrounded eventually. so fine, we'll have two categories of results. also it's tedious to kill all the monsters.

but you still have to get/do everything . . .

one reason for coming up with this contest was to see how to make the most effective use of ful bombs, wands, etc., because i know for certain that i could pass the game without once using a magical item whose powers that ran out after a while (except for that magic box bit on level 6 where you have to freeze a skeleton).

ciao

[+Jeff]

I have never been able to get the speed boots behind a hidden wall on level 11? The buttons don't open the wall. They do nothing.

[+Lucky Charms]

look at dmute to figure it out. i think the ones on level eleven are by the stairs. the boots on 10 are before the scorpion room. i know you can get all four pairs.

[+Yag Alone]

Boy! it's the most stupid contest I've ever seen!!! I'm in it!

Just one question : if I guess right, we're supposed to leave ALL possetions at the end of each levels. Does it mean that we'll crash into Chaos naked? Also, do we need to take aftermath item (eg: sword & shield of skeleton) to cover this rule?

IMHO, Things will start to be very hard at the end of the level 3 (4 packs of worms at once!), but the couatls of level 4 should be also painful!!!

At last, here is someone after having tryed to do this contest: -<%-S

[+mr. cool]

Hey! Don't you dare make fun of me! (just kidding)

The bit about possessions was just to make sure you got everything (and you drop what you don't want at the end of the level, keeping the rest). But I'm never actually going to check anyone's save game and I don't really know why I made the rule up. You're right that it would suck to have to pick up swords, clubs, shields, food, etc. and truck them around until the end of the level. So don't bother. Just get all the items, solve puzzles, etc. I guess the whole point of this (dumb?) contest was/is to see who could finish DM _completely_ with the lowest number of levels. I guess you could also have the finish DM _not completely_ with an even lower number of levels contest too. Obviously I can't make you do anything. Skill is only needed in RPG's when you don't have all-powerful characters, and that's what the level scores would represent, I suppose.

Right now, I hardly even have time to play the game at all . . .

Peace out, y'all (heh)!

[+Gay Lord]

I just re-found this awesome game and plan to play through all the levels again. I couldn't believe how small it is compared to games today! Back when I had an ST, I only got to go through it once before I had to move, but fell in love regardless. I think it is the best game and grandfather of 'olden' times, like D&D is for RPGs or the Hobbit is for fantasy. Nonetheless, it's amazing the junk that still remains in my brain after all this time from one playthrough. I remembered where the Chewbacca PC and the Death PC were in the hall of champions. Jeez, I need a life. But I digress.

While It's been too long for me to participate in this contest, since I don't even remember a tenth of the stuff in the game, I had a comment on procedure. First off, it will be impossible to verify player actions after completion. If I recall correctly, you get sealed up in the bottom once you pass a certain level or something. Thus you can't go back up to level ten or nine or whatever. Thus, you can't verify what people did up there. Secondly, as another player said, if everybody kills every monster, then XP would be the same for everybody.

I agree that the mark of a skilled player is not one who has all 18's (using D&D reference) but one who has all 3's. It's easy to win when you're the toughest guy around. It takes real skill to win otherwise. Since the real challenge here is to see who is the most skilled, you should just see who can win with the least levels, period. You're gonna hafta do SOME fighting to get the staff and gem, and just how much you can avoid will show your skill.

If you feel that that is too easy, since you've played it so much you have the solution down pat, then add in key items. For example, if treasure ABC is in a hard to reach area, add that to the list. If the same is true for treasure DEF, add that in. You all can decide on exactly which items you need to complete the scavenger hunt, since you know better than I which things are hard to get. You might add in dragon steaks to show you killed the dragon too. Then you have to have all these items with you at the end. No need then to see previous levels, doesn't matter what you did on them. If certain items are used a lot, like freeze boxes, then say you have to have all the boxes too, can't have used em.

Just a thought. Hope this improves your contest.

ps. are the amiga and st versions like the originals? I just downloaded the pc game tonight and the graphics aren't like the old st version at all. They're crude and simplistic, like EGA. I would love to play the original ST version, but those are long gone. I guess this will have to do. But it's better than nothing! Peace.