DM and CSG combo team?
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Mophus_the_Healer
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DM and CSG combo team?
Can you combine characters from your old DM team with some of the new characters in CSG? Just asking because my brother and I never beat DM and CSG never worked for us. Can anyone clear this up for us?
It is possible in the RTC-version of DM/CSB, you'll find it at www.ragingmole.com
In other DM/CSB versions it is possible by emulating characters with a character editor (but I think it's just not the same).
In other DM/CSB versions it is possible by emulating characters with a character editor (but I think it's just not the same).
Parting is all we know from Heaven, and all we need of hell.
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PicturesInTheDark
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Mophus_the_Healer
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cowsmanaut
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Ameena
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Couple of differences you may notice in DMO ("O" stands for "Original") - Monsters are never in fixed groups, Thieves can steal items from both hands rather than just the left (grr), monsters don't die when they fall down pits, and for some reason the Screamer and Rat rooms seem strangely empty every time you visit them. 
In DMRTC, you have this Spellbook thing, and you can't use a certain rune until you find it and scribe it in the book. So no Fireballs until like level seven or wherever it is you find the scroll :O.
In DMRTC, you have this Spellbook thing, and you can't use a certain rune until you find it and scribe it in the book. So no Fireballs until like level seven or wherever it is you find the scroll :O.
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cowsmanaut
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don't mind Ameena.. just likes to complain that one.. 
Monsters are able to move from one group to singles to groups of other monster types. This is something they couldn't do because of limitations however it's likley they would have if not for that.
Monsters don't die when going down pits.. or not always. Again a limitation of DM where monster types could not exist on any level but their own due to the limit of only being allowed 3 types(or was it only 2) per level. so, as a result.. they ceased to exist rather than actually die. In RTC, they are given as fair a chance as you are.. fall and lose health.
As for the rat and screamer thing.. well I've no idea..
lastly.. in the DMRTC the alternate way to play DM. The spell book ensures there is no *CHEATING*. Player knowledge vs character knowledge. The way it worked the first time you played DM you didn't know the fireball spell untill you found it on a scroll. Period.. the spell book ensures that you can't make use of that spell untill you find it. Nothing unreasonable there. Some people act like it's unfair or something.. sheesh! I mean, you couldn't do it the first time around.. but did you complain then?
moo
Monsters are able to move from one group to singles to groups of other monster types. This is something they couldn't do because of limitations however it's likley they would have if not for that.
Monsters don't die when going down pits.. or not always. Again a limitation of DM where monster types could not exist on any level but their own due to the limit of only being allowed 3 types(or was it only 2) per level. so, as a result.. they ceased to exist rather than actually die. In RTC, they are given as fair a chance as you are.. fall and lose health.
As for the rat and screamer thing.. well I've no idea..
lastly.. in the DMRTC the alternate way to play DM. The spell book ensures there is no *CHEATING*. Player knowledge vs character knowledge. The way it worked the first time you played DM you didn't know the fireball spell untill you found it on a scroll. Period.. the spell book ensures that you can't make use of that spell untill you find it. Nothing unreasonable there. Some people act like it's unfair or something.. sheesh! I mean, you couldn't do it the first time around.. but did you complain then?
moo
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cowsmanaut
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PicturesInTheDark
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RTC is not only faithful to the original but a considerable improvement with monster regrouping, spellbook entries, graphical add-on's (fireball explosions!) and monster intelligence. It's hard even for the best players to complete dungeons when the difficulty is improved, no matter how long they've known the game.
Regards, PitD
Regards, PitD
/hissssa.png)
I have to jump in on a couple of points, even though the discussion is a little old.
First, about player knowledge vs. character knowledge: one of the big draws of Dungeon Master, for me, was experimentation with the runes to make a list of all the spells. The first few levels were fascinating times, tryng to make combinations that made sense. It was often frustrating when you thought you had a combination that would work (who didn't try ful kath ra at some point?) and delightful when you hit upon a real spell...though often you'd have no idea what it was for (the seeing through walls spell had me mystified for a long time, and the first time I played DM I had about a dozen Zo Kath Ras that I tossed through most of the dungeon, trying to find a use for them). So finding the scrolls, for me, was merely an aid for the people who hadn't hit on the right combinations yet.
Though I must admit that when I've tried to play using only the spells specified by the scrolls I've found (ie using des ven as the only offensive spell in the upper levels), I've found the spells they've provided surprisingly effective.
CSB was, for me, a big let-down in that respect, because there were no new spells to discover. Skullkeep was a little more engaging in that respect.
Second, about the gigglers stealing in the original. I recall that gigglers would steal from both hands on the ST version, but they would steal from the left hand only after all the right hands were empty. It may be that those of you who didn't experience this were faster than I was in rearming yourselves and so never experienced this, but it happened to me several times where I'd be running around on the Arena level with the Delta, Bow, Crossbow and Axe all stolen, chucking ful irs and des ews at the various impediments, and while I was doing so, the gigglers would come up and yank the vi potions out of my hands just as I was going to drink it, and as I turned, getting attacked by mummies and skeletons, the darn pest would steal a shield, too! (How's that for a run-on sentence?)
Seeker19
First, about player knowledge vs. character knowledge: one of the big draws of Dungeon Master, for me, was experimentation with the runes to make a list of all the spells. The first few levels were fascinating times, tryng to make combinations that made sense. It was often frustrating when you thought you had a combination that would work (who didn't try ful kath ra at some point?) and delightful when you hit upon a real spell...though often you'd have no idea what it was for (the seeing through walls spell had me mystified for a long time, and the first time I played DM I had about a dozen Zo Kath Ras that I tossed through most of the dungeon, trying to find a use for them). So finding the scrolls, for me, was merely an aid for the people who hadn't hit on the right combinations yet.
Though I must admit that when I've tried to play using only the spells specified by the scrolls I've found (ie using des ven as the only offensive spell in the upper levels), I've found the spells they've provided surprisingly effective.
CSB was, for me, a big let-down in that respect, because there were no new spells to discover. Skullkeep was a little more engaging in that respect.
Second, about the gigglers stealing in the original. I recall that gigglers would steal from both hands on the ST version, but they would steal from the left hand only after all the right hands were empty. It may be that those of you who didn't experience this were faster than I was in rearming yourselves and so never experienced this, but it happened to me several times where I'd be running around on the Arena level with the Delta, Bow, Crossbow and Axe all stolen, chucking ful irs and des ews at the various impediments, and while I was doing so, the gigglers would come up and yank the vi potions out of my hands just as I was going to drink it, and as I turned, getting attacked by mummies and skeletons, the darn pest would steal a shield, too! (How's that for a run-on sentence?)
Seeker19
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cowsmanaut
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while it's true that experimentation was something nearly everyone did, and true it meant you may have gotten spells before you should have. It's simply not possible to provide that experience again really since now you already know them. So the only real way to challenge you is to limit you. Annother point is you were not really intended to have those spells untill they were told to you so if you think about it.. this is the way it was intended to chanllenge you.
The only way one could manage to do the spell discovery again is to make new spells and to change the symbols and their order so that you would be lost as to what was what.
moo
The only way one could manage to do the spell discovery again is to make new spells and to change the symbols and their order so that you would be lost as to what was what.
moo
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PicturesInTheDark
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That is -psychologically speaking- an interesting and (I think) true observation. Experianced players are looking for less options to gain more fun and/or challenge out of something they think they knew well - and RTC and CSBwin in combination with a new dungeon can be quite surprising sometimes - a very pleasant feeling, not to mention rewarding if you can beat that challenge!
Regards, PitD
Regards, PitD
Pretty off-topic, but...
Warning: I may flog a dead horse here. But I just want to stress that learning the spells on your own through experimentation is not getting spells before you were supposed to have them! Nor are we not intended to have the spells before we read them on a scroll in DM, CSB or DM2, though that is certainly the case in a dungeon which uses the marvelous spellbook.
Again, I apologize if I am retreading old discussions here (suggested by a post I read a while back that the spellbook was a contentious addition - something I don't get), but the fact that the spellbook has been created and implemented does not mean that the original game designers somehow overlooked the possibility that people would experiment and discover the spells on their own. The spellbook is a great addition to the game, and gives dungeon designers added flexibility in controlling how the player approaches his/her challenges. But all its presence indicates is that we, as fans of the original game engine, have decided to offer some alternative ways of playing the game.
I think it was a clear intent of the original game designers that people could experiment with the runes and thus learn every spell in the game (if they took the time), and I think this for three reasons:
1. The fact that the game designers chose to use the runes system they had devised - unique as we all know to this one game and its sequels - and chose to have all the runes available from the beginning. If the game designers had wanted to limit which spells could be used in a particular time and place, they certainly would have done so. The presence of the scrolls is merely as a help for those players who either didn't think to experiment with the runes, who didn't discover a particular spell, or who didn't realize what a particular spell did (as in my case with the aforementioned oh ew ra), and shouldn't be construed that people are not supposed to use other spells that haven't been specified on scrolls!
2. The fact that everyone I know or have heard of who played the game immediately began experimenting with the runes (cowsmanaut put it well, saying: "experimentation was something nearly everyone did"). Surely this wasn't a surprise to the folks at FTL? If experimentation with the runes is as universal as I have witnessed it to be, this would have turned up in playtesting, if not in the demos that FTL released in 1985 (I don't recall if the demos had the runes or not - does anyone else? I'm feeling too lazy to dig out the demos right now). So, the folks at FTL were aware that people were going to experiment with the runes. If this was counter to their intent, wouldn't they have "fixed" the game to prevent it? It took more than a year for the game to be released after the demo was released, so they had plenty of time to do so. Countless other fantasy games have built-in ways of limiting which spells are used by the player; if the game designers had wanted to limit the spell use, they would have done something different than what everyone was experimenting with.
3. Finally, one should consider that the whole game is about experimentation - the manual doesn't tell you to pick up a coin and put it into a fountain, or how to refill a water bottle, or how to use a Vi altar, or how to chop down a door, or even how to read a scroll...these were all things you had to learn by experimenting. Why would the runes be the one aspect of the game where you wouldn't experiment?
Now, I love the idea of the spellbook: it's great! But it's not a "fix" to the game - it's a cool option for making the game more challenging for people who have played it before, as PitD said.
Seeker19
Again, I apologize if I am retreading old discussions here (suggested by a post I read a while back that the spellbook was a contentious addition - something I don't get), but the fact that the spellbook has been created and implemented does not mean that the original game designers somehow overlooked the possibility that people would experiment and discover the spells on their own. The spellbook is a great addition to the game, and gives dungeon designers added flexibility in controlling how the player approaches his/her challenges. But all its presence indicates is that we, as fans of the original game engine, have decided to offer some alternative ways of playing the game.
I think it was a clear intent of the original game designers that people could experiment with the runes and thus learn every spell in the game (if they took the time), and I think this for three reasons:
1. The fact that the game designers chose to use the runes system they had devised - unique as we all know to this one game and its sequels - and chose to have all the runes available from the beginning. If the game designers had wanted to limit which spells could be used in a particular time and place, they certainly would have done so. The presence of the scrolls is merely as a help for those players who either didn't think to experiment with the runes, who didn't discover a particular spell, or who didn't realize what a particular spell did (as in my case with the aforementioned oh ew ra), and shouldn't be construed that people are not supposed to use other spells that haven't been specified on scrolls!
2. The fact that everyone I know or have heard of who played the game immediately began experimenting with the runes (cowsmanaut put it well, saying: "experimentation was something nearly everyone did"). Surely this wasn't a surprise to the folks at FTL? If experimentation with the runes is as universal as I have witnessed it to be, this would have turned up in playtesting, if not in the demos that FTL released in 1985 (I don't recall if the demos had the runes or not - does anyone else? I'm feeling too lazy to dig out the demos right now). So, the folks at FTL were aware that people were going to experiment with the runes. If this was counter to their intent, wouldn't they have "fixed" the game to prevent it? It took more than a year for the game to be released after the demo was released, so they had plenty of time to do so. Countless other fantasy games have built-in ways of limiting which spells are used by the player; if the game designers had wanted to limit the spell use, they would have done something different than what everyone was experimenting with.
3. Finally, one should consider that the whole game is about experimentation - the manual doesn't tell you to pick up a coin and put it into a fountain, or how to refill a water bottle, or how to use a Vi altar, or how to chop down a door, or even how to read a scroll...these were all things you had to learn by experimenting. Why would the runes be the one aspect of the game where you wouldn't experiment?
Now, I love the idea of the spellbook: it's great! But it's not a "fix" to the game - it's a cool option for making the game more challenging for people who have played it before, as PitD said.
Seeker19
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PicturesInTheDark
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