Playtesting Conflux II

PicturesInTheDark · Post by **PicturesInTheDark** » Mon Nov 24, 2003 12:35 am

Paul, when testing Zyx' new dungeon I received a message from CSbwin at some point that "the atari engine was doing bad things" and the "databases would be enhanced". Anything I can do about it? Is that a problem or similar to the old database restrictions when too much food or too many weapons caused an overflow?

Regards, PitD

PicturesInTheDark · Post by **PicturesInTheDark** » Mon Nov 24, 2003 12:40 am

Second, I am afraid I got a "Timer 45" error that caused the engine to crash. I had a very similar problem only days ago with DMAlt from Beowuuf, it that case caused by a monster generator that did not stop and caused timer entries that the generator itself could not process quick enough so at some point the game simply crashed immediately after loading. Since I cannot do anything with my current save game I guess you will have to find out yourself what the problem is and fix it before I have to begin again. Or is there any way to fix the save game I have ?

Regards, PitD

*** SPOILER WARNING ***

P.S.: Just a guess: The only area I encountered so far where many monsters were around was in the level below the temple - since I used my feet to get out there as quickly as I could with my very weak party I cannot say if the generator in question is there - but maybe this helps you.
Get back to me via email or the forum for next stept, I'll cancel playtesting for now, since the timer problem prevents playing on.

Post by **Paul Stevens** » Mon Nov 24, 2003 3:30 am

In both cases, it would help immensely if you could provide
a savegame that causes the problem. It would relieve me
of having to guess about what might have happened. And
a recording would be nice, too, if any gameplay is involved
before the error occurs. Would that be possible?

Post by **Zyx** » Mon Nov 24, 2003 12:55 pm

Same for me, a savegame would help me.
Do the timer45 error happens when you change of level or while you're in a level? And which level?
Anyway I know how to fix the "infinite monster generator", I just have to know which one needs the fix.

PicturesInTheDark · Post by **PicturesInTheDark** » Mon Nov 24, 2003 5:29 pm

I will send it to both of you - since I have to work until midnight my time this will probably take a while and may be today or tomorrow. Both save game and records are available. The error ocurrs in a level - directly after saving it came up, so now when you reload it the engine pretty immediately crashes.

Zyx: Why are there infinite monster generators in there anyway? This is bound to be causing problems... isn't it?

Regards, PitD

Post by **Paul Stevens** » Mon Nov 24, 2003 8:22 pm

the atari engine was doing bad things" and the "databases would be enhanced". Anything I can do about it? Is that a problem or similar to the old database restrictions when too much food or too many weapons caused an overflow?

I see that spot in the code. The original code made provision
for a finite number of monsters on the Party's level. You have
exceeded that limit. My code offers to increase that limit.
You can accept or decline the offer. If you accept and it does
not work then I need to know. Otherwise, it is up to you to decide.

Post by **Zyx** » Mon Nov 24, 2003 8:37 pm

Why are there infinite monster generators in there anyway? This is bound to be causing problems... isn't it?

Yes you are right. I removed them.
What happened is that I wanted some monsters to be generated at a quite constant rate while you're in the level. As I never stay very long in the same place it was not a problem.
To avoid a complete flooding of monsters, they generally are confined within some limits (ie, in the river or in the flood in the sewers, the water fall in the pits). But this is not enough.
So now generators are limited to 20 to 60 generations. Except for generators activated by the party stepping on it. Though it is still theoretically possible to generate infinite monsters, you would have to step again and again in the same tile for an infinite time. This never happened in DM, so I assume it won't in Conflux.

My code offers to increase that limit.
You can accept or decline the offer

I'm not sure anout what you mean, but if you propose to increase the monsters limit and didn't do it yet, then yes, I think it would be better.
I guess the limit is around 60. I would need at least the double. And CSbwin should ignore subsequent monster generations instead of crashing (well, maybe a one-time warning could be displayed to inform about a possible bad design if the limit is reached).

[/quote]

Post by **Paul Stevens** » Mon Nov 24, 2003 9:23 pm

Second, I am afraid I got a "Timer 45" error that caused the engine to crash

OK. I see that spot in the code, too. The original runtime
had provision for 436 timers. Clearly not enough for
this dungeon. I will post a version of CSBwin that will
automatically re-allocate the timers and allow up to
5000. The absolute limit is 65000 but that seems a bit
unreasonable. If it goes over 5000 it is likely to increase
beyond any limit. A timer is needed for each monster
(actually two timers if on the party's level, I think). And
one timer is required for each queued monster generator.
And a few more for messages and miscellaneous.

So.....all in all this has been very successful test. The only
problems you found so far are limitations on database
sizes which are due to the massive dungeon and which are
relatively easy to relax.

Post by **Paul Stevens** » Mon Nov 24, 2003 9:24 pm

I forgot to say.....I would still like those savegames so that
I can test the changes I am going to make and to be sure
that what I think went wrong is what really went wrong.

PicturesInTheDark · Post by **PicturesInTheDark** » Wed Nov 26, 2003 1:42 am

Paul, you should have the savegames by now, I sent you the email. Second, I of course accepted the offer and it worked. I guess the timer 45 error has to be seen apart from this message - just wanted to know when it was launched.

Regards, PitD

PicturesInTheDark · Post by **PicturesInTheDark** » Wed Nov 26, 2003 1:46 am

Zyx: I think a limitation to a finite number (in this case 60) is all right, assuming that the dungeon/level in question would still be balanced. My main interest was to assure that an unlimited generator was (in my opinion) pointless by design because it was bound to create problems and unbalance the game. The problem with and/or actuators as I see it is that you might arrive in a level with your party having to face an unreasonable amount of opponents created - but that's yours to decide.

Regards, PitD

Post by **Paul Stevens** » Wed Nov 26, 2003 2:40 am

I got the four games and the three records.
All three records were for a game that you did
not include. So I did not get to try them.

game1...I managed to cause an error 45-too many
timer records. I think I fixed this.

game2...I died a lot but I did not see any problems
with the runtime engine.

game3...Too many monsters. I accepted the offer
to increase the database size and all seemed well.

game4...I died a lot but no other problems.

I posted version 9.6L
=========================================
Version 9.6L
--Automatically expand the number of allowable Timer entries.
--Fix one cause of crash when 'Restarting' after party dies.

Post by **Zyx** » Wed Nov 26, 2003 2:48 am

PitD: you're right about the infinite generator. My point was to obtain a constant population by a regular, periodic generation... Only that they didn't die of old and kept increasing in number...
Quite naive for someone who studied four years of biology!

Post by **Paul Stevens** » Wed Nov 26, 2003 3:07 am

Zyx:

You could use a DSA to occasionally (like every couple minutes
or whatever) examine a portion of the dungeon, count
monsters of a particular type, and trigger regeneration if
necessary.

Just a hint.

Post by **Zyx** » Wed Nov 26, 2003 12:27 pm

A very interesting idea, Paul!

Some small requests:
Could you make the function keys F2-F8 select the current basic tile type (like a left clicking on the top-right part of the screen)?

When editing a pressure pad, you still can anything in the "target facing" combobox.

PicturesInTheDark · Post by **PicturesInTheDark** » Wed Nov 26, 2003 1:55 pm

Hi Paul, thanks for your efforts - Zyx already sent me a newer version so I guess no point in looking through the old game if I have to restart anew anyway. For the record: I also died a lot. Constantly.

Is it possible btw to program a function into CSBwin to depict already found spell scrolls in one window - sort of a help function. THis would be extremely useful in Zyx' dungeon from my point of view, but maybe also in others. Just a request.

Zyx: Any more changes necessary before I can restart? I'd like to avoid making permanent contact with the rats at the beginning if possible. ;o)

Regards, PitD

Post by **Zyx** » Wed Nov 26, 2003 4:22 pm

Only decorative changes so far. I cn only hope there won't be any other big issues.

Post by **Paul Stevens** » Wed Nov 26, 2003 4:43 pm

Zyx: Re: F2-F8

There are 12 tiles. Which 7 do you propose?
We have the entire keyboard at our disposal.
Maybe we could use 12 ordinary, alphabetic
keys for the 12 tiles??? Or the digits, minus
and equal???

Post by **Zyx** » Wed Nov 26, 2003 6:30 pm

Why did I come up with the number 8 first?

Yes what I meant was to associate all the tiles to keys. I would personnaly reserve the letter keys for eventual actions (like cut, copy and paste:-;).

PicturesInTheDark · Post by **PicturesInTheDark** » Wed Nov 26, 2003 6:36 pm

Meaning F1 to F12 for the tiles is the proposal?

Regards, PitD

Post by **Zyx** » Wed Nov 26, 2003 7:06 pm

Or the numbers with plus and minus...

Post by **Paul Stevens** » Wed Nov 26, 2003 7:42 pm

Good. Thanks for the feedback.
I don't like using function keys for these things.

There is no problem with letter keys and copy,
paste, etc because those use the standard Windows
Control-C etc.

I like the numbers, minus, and equal. That still
gives us one character on each side for expansion.
The backslash and the back-tick.

I had been reserving my energy to deal with Conflux II
issues but I think I will proceed with this enhancement
because it is unlikely to cause any additional problems.

PicturesInTheDark · Post by **PicturesInTheDark** » Thu Nov 27, 2003 12:11 pm

I'll raise my hand if I come across any other problems while testing, otherwise I also think so far it is safe to assume the issue is fixed. Will be testing on the weekend, back for more after that.

Regards, PitD

P.S.: What about my request a few posts up? Do you think this is possible or worthwile (asking anybody reading this...) ?

Post by **Paul Stevens** » Thu Nov 27, 2003 4:06 pm

PitD: What is it you want? Some menu option, for
example, that will display all the text that you have
read from scrolls? A kind of 'Scroll Automapper'?

Post by **Zyx** » Thu Nov 27, 2003 4:28 pm

More than a request, a question: Paul, could you easily provide a way to take screenshots when playing CSBwin? (I can do it with an exterior program, so it is of very low priority and only worth it if it costs you almost nothing to do it). I was thinking about the players who want to show something and who don't have time or patience to use a 3rd party program to take the screenshot.

Post by **Paul Stevens** » Thu Nov 27, 2003 11:43 pm

I posted CSBuild 0.806

========================================
Version 0.806
--Edit PressurePad dialog restricts target positon to
legal values.
--Provide '1 to '=' keys as shortcuts to select tile types.

PicturesInTheDark · Post by **PicturesInTheDark** » Sat Nov 29, 2003 11:15 am

Zyx's dungeon makes it necessary to either take notes or have on overview of certain scrolls - so I would want to have an overview of the texts. The "auto-mapper" would be nice in CSB since it was present in the original as a map, but low priority from my point of view. Tapping walls and drinking directly from fountains are higher.

Regards, PitD

beowuuf · Post by **beowuuf** » Sat Nov 29, 2003 1:49 pm

yes, i am missing tapping on walls too...didn't realise how much i do it until testing conflux...in the old days i used to use a stick, but guess i'm getting lazy in my old age : )

Post by **cowsmanaut** » Sun Nov 30, 2003 2:29 am

completely fails to load over here. I get the game to boot up, I get the dungeon entrance. I then get an "unknown smart discard of objects" for a dagger and Falchion. I then click to enter the dungeon .. the doors open and I get a windows "send this bug to microsft window" as it crashes.

windows XP pro
2.8 ghz hyperthreaded P4
1 gig ram
geforce 4 TI 4200

I've tried the CSB for atari that comes with the CSB engine and the movie.. both work and load fine.. no errors no unwanted exits.

I'd send a save game file.. but since I cannot get into the game in the first place. :/

moo

Post by **cowsmanaut** » Sun Nov 30, 2003 2:41 am

side note:

when I replace the dungeon.dat with the DM one I still get the discard but I can enter the dungeon and play.. so it's got to be something with the conflux dungeon.dat

moo