We're all gonna die! or: New to DM

Toni Y · Post by **Toni Y** » Sat Mar 20, 2004 4:41 am

Played a bit more. I even recorded this run, but unfortunately I think I screwed up the recording.

I started with csbgame000.dat and finished by saving to csbgame000.dat without realizing that the game probably would've needed the original save for the initial status, doh! In fact, to really finalize the screwup, I saved twice to the same slot so the .bak was corrupted too

(I saved and played, but then realized that I'll save and quit to give a proper closure for the demo. *kicks self repeatedly*)

'Twas the old habit of always saving to 000 when I'm back at the Junction and to save to the rest slots during playing a path.

Oh well.

After shuffling my items some more at the Junction and armed with empty chests I marched onwards. I decided to finnish Ros since I had almost completed the part beneath DDD. So went to kill some dragons amongst illusionary walls. Went pretty smoothly. The dragons succumbed to poison clouds fast since the poor bastards didn't know how to navigate (well) through the illusionary walls. Got a important looking key and marched on to DDD. (after shopping for some armor which was useless since I already had better on anyone who could carry plate)

DDD. Whacked the stonepile and some demons. Then proceeded to look around. Here's the Ku-pit. Hmm. There's a pit blocking a short corridor with teleport in the same area. I have a vague recollection that I need to close that pit somehow. Throw a poison dart at the teleported. Interesting, but not quite the effect I was after.

I keep staring at the pit some more and decide to look into alternative areas.

Des Ew'd the flames and got a key. Visited downstairs to stare at a sturdy door. Des Ew'd some more to the upstairs. Danced with wolves, I mean Cerberuses (Cerberi?). Tried to feed the lock picks to the lock behind which was a wand and magic box, but it just clicked. Oh well. The other door opened just fine and released a stone golem onto me... Well, this was more or less a dead end, so back down.

Returned to downstairs, generated another demon to try the route to the right from the start of DDD. Dropped down a pit. Had to kill the demon and couldn't generate another until boredom struck. Decided to screw with the pits and retraced my path to the Ku corbum. (Killing another dragon in the Ku Dragon Den again in the process)

I had observed the pits earlier and I knew there was a fake pit from which I could step down to the Ros part of Corbum pillar. (Well, I found the fake pit myself. I knew where it took me because I had read the CSB speedrunning threads on this BBS

)

At Ros pit-maze, I took carefull observation of the pit patterns and made my way to the Ros corbum and claimed it for myself. I wanted to go back to the Ros start at DDD, but I didn't find a way back over the pit maze from this side with quick look, so decided to drop down to the start worm room and head back to the Junction. Need to finish mopping that place later.

Back at junction I made the fatefull savegame which screwed up the recording.

Antman · Post by **Antman** » Sat Mar 20, 2004 6:00 am

I've got a game where i get every item and kill every monster, except for respawning monsters, which is only 8 and a half hours with 1 reincarnated character. Actually, i forgot to kill those two death knights that appear behind you and trap you when you flick that switch in the 'no fireballs' place in KU. You should just be able to quick play it and stop it where you want to watch, anyway, if you want it, just ask.

Post by **Paul Stevens** » Sat Mar 20, 2004 8:22 am

Heh! Antman.

Eight and a half hours! What's your hurry?
My game (I got ALL the monsters) took over fifteen hours.

(((((You want'a have a contest?))))) For the longest game?

Post by **Lunever** » Sun Mar 21, 2004 11:57 am

Toni Y: The Dragon Den is quite easy to do: Stand beside the tile before a grate so you can see on the side of the viewing display whether a dragon is standing behind the grate; if so, quickly sidstep, cast DesVen through the grate and quickly sidestep again so the dragon won't blast the grate. Repeat until all dragons accessible trough a grate are dead, then finish off the remaining ones.

Slide: At the downmost level there is access to the teleporter leading to the JoW through an illusionary wall from every one of the 4 pathes. The Worms down there in the Ku part as well as in the Ros part are only regenerating when you step on the invisible monster generator trigger pads. If you know where they are, you can circumvent them and thus prevent monster respawning (Dragon slaying is a lot easier without a lot of worms creeping around).

Denise: Maybe it would help you, if you'd remember what the last item was you dropped in the Surrender your Possessiones trap.

Paul Cassel · Post by **Paul Cassel** » Mon Mar 22, 2004 12:47 am

My progress both with my PC’s and my general mental makeup hasn’t progressed much if any. I decided to slip again into KU to see what I could see having navigated NETA to the DDD and DAIN to somewhere where I looped back to the JoW w/o seeing the DDD. There was a dead end passage after I passed the room where I recovered a second vorpal which bypassed the flying snakes, but which seemed impassable. I never figured out how to open this passage so left the DAIN area through the ‘prove you’re a wizard’ express train. From there I dropped back to the JoW although I noted another door out of that large room with the water elementals, I had no key.

Denise – as to landing on the ‘wrong’ side of the JoW safe area, you can climb the stairs to the Quick Supplies room, gather any supplies (mine seem depleted utterly) and then to drop down to the water side of the JoW. There is no ‘wrong’ side to the JoW, IMO. I’ve also found the only lock I can pick using the lock picks is the one that releases the blue rains in the JoW so look for that.

So I’m back at KU wading through the mummy legion finally cleaning them to a pause. I then entered a room with frozen skull knights. Clearly the right strategy here would be one of two. Either kill the knight guarding the release button and then grab and run or kill them all then explore. I only learned of the release button after dispatching the knights entirely because I needed the room clean to learn where the button was. This brings us to the second strategy here which would be to use the grate doors as a weapon. This did succeed on two knights, but wandering re-genned mummies or a two knight attack put paid to this idea for the others. Thus I was on the run for a rather tedious time of ducking down to the large room now running with worms and the invincible dragoon, poking my head back up to take another few swipes at the knight then down, then up. Eventually I finished all on the loose so got to explore the room, find the release button and recover what I hope is a good weapon.

The next logical step, I thought, would be to dispatch the dragon now that I had a good set of weapons and my PC’s had advanced to expert in fighting. However, that proved impossible. The dragon absorbed two ‘masterfuls’ of mana in ven’s. I am trying this because the ful route proved futile. I then spent all of my char’s stamina following the dragon about hitting it on the tail. I got hit returns of roughly 0-25 hp. I flasked my PC’s up on stamina potion to continue hitting the dragon with more ven as I had the ability and constantly with sword and axe. However, like ful, the ven seems ineffective and 25 minute real time hitting the dragon’s tail took down my human stamina. Unable to flask myself up, I gave it up as a bad job once again. I conclude that the dragon can’t be killed and therefore isn’t a food source. It’s easily avoidable so not really a hazard if I need transition the place, but it can’t be a resource either. I’m sure the dragon isn’t defined as immortal in the game, but averaging 8 hp per weapon hit on a monster with 2.000 or more hp makes it immortal to me.

So I’m again stymied. I post this not for a hint, but as an update for those following this first time through thread. There are two other routes in KU which seem as impossible as a dragon kill. One is a place with a grate door, and a posted series of little wizards like the one I found in NETA. Whilst trying to take on these wizards I am cross fired by them and constantly regenerating flying munchers indicating to me that this is merely a trap. My team dies at each attempt as we get swarmed by munchers whilst fireballed by wizards.

The second feature is a room full of oiti which seem invulnerable to spells. Defeating them isn’t feasible although I could hit and run as a tactic, it’d be impossible given my food supplies. I suppose I could remember the way to the JoW now, regen some worms, lose an item in the lose your shorts place and then return to KU to take on the oiti rooms but this constant repeating in lieu of adventure seems rather tedious to me.

So I abandoned the game with the perhaps injured dragon and now am considering my options.

As a comment to the programmers such as Paul who may be looking at writing other adventures or enhancements, I, since Atari ST days and DM, have wished for a way we could assess our opponents’ conditions. For example, I had no idea how much that dragon had left. Did I leave off a game where the dragon was 10 hp from dissolution or was it, as I suspected, hardly affected by my attack? We never can see how much damage our spells have on the enemy either. I’d welcome a method for either or both. For all I know the ven attacks on the dragon has as little effect as the vens on the oiti or the fuls on the dragon.

Toni Y · Post by **Toni Y** » Mon Mar 22, 2004 1:14 am

To slide:

The Executioner is a good weapon.

You don't nescessarily need to whack the Oitus. That way leads to DDD through Ku path. I recall you can reach DDD through Neta, so getting there is not a problem.

Once at DDD you need the key from Ku path... Which unfortunately is held by your favourite Dragon. Monsters don't heal, so you can just whack the Dragon every now and then and return when you feel you're up to do some more whacking. It should die eventually.

You may also want to feed as many Ku -potions to your fighter carrying the Executioner. That way he can hit for maximum effect. With my doped up warrior using Executioner I usually landed about 20-60 hp damange per strike. [Edit, I mean did to other Dragons. I didn't have Executioner when I killed the one in the Ku basement]

Lunever: One may need to remember the second last item, or third last item. There's a timer before opening after relinquishing yourself of all of the right item... But divining what the item is should be relatively easy since last time Denise dropped there she was carrying only 3 items, IIRC...

beowuuf · Post by **beowuuf** » Mon Mar 22, 2004 2:06 am

slide wrote: I post this not for a hint, but as an update for those following this first time through thread.

Lol, we can't help it, we like DM and saying how we've managed to beat it : )

just to add, ven poison clouds are an extremely innefficient weapon if the monster can move, but if you can freeze/trap them, then you have no better friend...a single freeze life box and a few ven bombs can do conciderable damage. A few freeze life boxes and as much strong clouds (ven can be cast at high spell levels quite quickly) as your mana can spare would be the way to go.
Also - fireball not as inneffective as you would imagine on a fire dragon!

KU is all about the fighting though...spells are flung back at you. But the goal of the first part is the dragon, you can ignore the floods and so on...if you can get there and take it out, then i beleive you will have found the area in the DDD you need to progress

It does sound like CSB is not your style of play, or at least its a challenge, and not fun for recreation. There are many other custom dungeons available by fans, all with different styles of play and levels. You might want to take a break from CSB and remember what's fun about DM in a different dungeon : )
[/quote]

sucinum · Post by **sucinum** » Mon Mar 22, 2004 2:31 am

beowuuf wrote:It does sound like CSB is not your style of play

same here. csb i great designed and i really adore the work behind it - but i prefer linear dungeons

what i dislike most is the fact that 50% or what of the dungeon are optional - like if all oarts of the dungeon have a use.

Post by **Lunever** » Mon Mar 22, 2004 4:32 pm

Slide: I agree with Toni: Blast the Ku-Dragon every now and then, it will finally die. But before you despair, there is one other possibility (but that would require you to have a short look upon the map of the bottom level): Lure the dragon to a spot where you have 4 free tiles without a worm generator trigger, then simply move in a small circle, every time the dragon follows up a step, strike with the Executioner (preferably Ku-Potion powered) and quickly sidestep again. You will be surprised how easy you can defeat him that way.

Paul Cassel · Post by **Paul Cassel** » Mon Mar 22, 2004 5:33 pm

Lunever, others,

I have spent 25 mintues real time following the dragon around whacking it on the tail to no avail. I find it easy to avoid even being able to eat food or potions whilst doing the dragon dance. I even took a short phone call whilst engaged in the last fight. I figured that if expert fighters using good weapons for 25 minutes and master wizards expending 100% of their mana on ven didn't kill the thing, nothing would.

I don't need the 4 x 4 area as I can remain behind the dragon easily anywhere in the room. Sometimes it'll run down a pasage whereby I run down the other side, whack it, then it turns around, I give it another whack to two, out run the fireball, then run down the other side to whack it again on the tail. Now that I use a conventional keyboard for playing CSB instead of the high dwell wireless, out running most things seems reasonable. So far I've not been able to out run munchers or oiti.

Comment to another poster here, I am not using poison clouds, but ven bolts on the dragon. I am loathe to make poison bombs because of the dearth of flasks in this game (as compared to DM).

I did KU up against the skull knights finding it made no discerable difference in hp returned or in weapon recovery time. It may have made a differnce in either, but not that I noted so I gave up that idea.

Overall I"m somewhat baffled. I seem to be doing exactly the same things as others here yet am not having as much 'luck' as those others. OTOH, I again go back to game balance hoping not to distress others here by doing so. If the average hp return per whack on dragon is 20, that means we need at least 100 whacks on dragon to finish it off. I think that a bit excessive, but since others here don't, I suppose I'm in the minority at least on this forum. Since my average was, I estimate, 8 hp, my hit occurance met or may even have exceeded 300. I can' t think of another game I've played or heard of which required even the 100 hits to finish an inline monster, much less the 300. I'm not complaining, only commenting!

OTOH, I can't say for sure how many whacks that dragon in DM took. I sure don't remember it being as high, though.

Now I do query for a hint. Are there boots of speed in this game? I sure miss them. -Paul Cassel

beowuuf · Post by **beowuuf** » Mon Mar 22, 2004 5:44 pm

Ah, poison cloud, not bolts - a good poison bolt will do about melee weapon damage, whcih as you say is not much to a dragon. A good set of poison clouds can keep doing melee damage again and again and again until a freeze life wears off. Try a constant stream on yourself and you might appreciate how deadly they are. If you have VEN bombs fro mthe dungeon you can use them up too, but agreed - you don't want to create your own ven bombs.

But yes, weapon wise unless you can use a berserk option, or unless you can do huge damage with increased strength from Ku potions, it's gone form fun to mental stamina. In DM you would have had the best weapons and highest levels, so the dragon is much easier. The ey of time isn't somethign to be sneezed at either! The important point about ku potions is one or two in isolation don't do much difference, it's building up your fighters using them until they have massive strength.

There are four boots of speed in the game.

Post by **Lunever** » Mon Mar 22, 2004 5:48 pm

Slide: How high did you push up your strength with KU-potions? You know you can drink several of them, the effects are stackable. What weapon are you using to whack the dragon? The Executioner only fully shows it's real damaging potential if your fighters are good enough to have it's third combat option "Berzerk". While in RTC the damage shown is the true damage after subtracting enemy armor, in Atari/Amiga/CSBWin I think it is only the damage done, without having armor subtracted, so you can't really guess how much hits it will need, even if you know how much health the monster got.

As Beo pointed out: DesVen poison bolts are not the only way to kill a dragon, FulIr fireballs are quite effective too (I suppose you do use high level spells against the dragon?). If even that fails, prepare a few OhVen poison cloud (not poison bomb) spells, have one ore two magic boxes readied (preferably green ones), freeze the dragon and then immediately gas him (and continue whacking him while he is suffocating).

sucinum · Post by **sucinum** » Mon Mar 22, 2004 5:55 pm

>>in Atari/Amiga/CSBWin I think it is only the damage done, without having armor subtracted

no, that's not true, i often enough added up the damage when killing some fattie and it was always correct.

beowuuf · Post by **beowuuf** » Mon Mar 22, 2004 5:57 pm

dm etc always shows true damage...you can tell, when you whack a knight or golem its normally fairly low level damage registered

Paul Cassel · Post by **Paul Cassel** » Mon Mar 22, 2004 6:07 pm

I can confirm Sucinum's comment on DM on the ST and Amiga. IIRC, my high point in DM came when I whacked a golem, got a 256 return and dropped it with one shot. Well, that's my memory, but then it was, what, 1987 and I've forgotten (and made up) a lot since then.

Lunever - I"m using Diamond Edge or diamond something that I think I got from Supplies. I'm also able to have berzerk with the axe. It seems to me that in almost all cases, if not all, the sword returns higher than the axe which seemed strange to me. My axe guy is an Expert. I pumped them to 60+ strength. As to freeze boxes, I am out having had to jettison them when I had to decide to carry food or 'other'.

Please remember that although I'm a newbie at CSB, I was quite good at DM back in ST / Amiga days. I was good enough to be able to do a single easily although my skills did erode. My try at mid level RTC shook me up quite a bit, but my abilties seem to have returned now.

So my direct question. Does it take you CSB experts 100-300 whacks to get this dragon assuming light magic use? My take is that this isn't even the tough one. The DDD dragon is even tougher. I am practiciing my team in fighting knowing that this is KU. I think they started at J and now are E's o I"m not being utterly negligent here. Yet I find this, like the skull knight run and whack, quite fatiguing. -Paul

Post by **Lunever** » Mon Mar 22, 2004 6:28 pm

Slide: Str 60 is less than my veteran DMparty has without Ku-potions. Brew some MonFulBroKu-potions and get strength of 200+ (maximum 255) and then use the Executioner at Berzerk, that WILL make a difference. Store the potions, sleep to regenerate Mana, prepare high-power fireballs, slepp to regenerate Mana, drink the potions with your strongest fighter (holding the executioner, giving the second best weapon like the diamond edge to your other fighter), blast him with MonFulIr-fireballs while whacking him hard, continue whacking him when you are out of Mana, shoot again when you have regenerated some Mana during whacking. If this ain't work I dunno.

beowuuf · Post by **beowuuf** » Mon Mar 22, 2004 6:59 pm

Naturally you can only get 170 strength in dm, unless paul removed that block. You can Dmute above that, but dm's natural limit is 170.
But even 20 or 30 strength above your normal you should start to see an improvement in damage. If you go the strength fighting route, I would advice channeling all the KU potions to one receipient. The effects slowly reduces over time, but you can usually not as fast as mana regeneration. You can sleep and have a second or third round of potions to pump up. Since you do have a berserk option (i mistoke melee weapon to mean 'melee option' weapon) then you should find you get a few more statistically friendly hits in. It;s all luck. Make sure you aren't wearing deth knight armour - its cursed, meaning your internal luck stat is affected...every little helps and hinders!

The basement dragon is the toughetst (called MONGOR) with 3700 health, beating the DDD dragon's 3200hp

I went down to the basement and basically chased the dragon quickly with one round of Mon DesOh's. I think I managed one 25 hp blow (melee with an axe). I then recharged magic, and this time trapped the dagon at the end of a staircase and narrow passageway. A few lo clouds to push it backwards, then i unloaded about four mon clouds on it it couldn't escape. Once they cleared, i moved out with minimal health (only hyad two health potions) and cheked the damage in an editor. 2900. So there you go, one skimming attack and one swift push with one character using clouds, and I did about 800 - . about 2/9's of its health gone : )

beowuuf · Post by **beowuuf** » Mon Mar 22, 2004 7:33 pm

ok, invested in one round of = strength KU potions (can't produce higher than that just now), to get a strength of 108. Using an axe's melee, did the following in a few minutes

68, 28, 69, 21, 14, 56, miss (it moved), miss, 23, 23, 67, 29, 35

so that's about 400hp damage, another 1/9 funnily!

I htink perhaps strength makes just as much difference as weapon..perhaps lower level options faster is better than waiting for a berserk to recharge. Then again, berserk can do the potential 100+ damage...

also, if you can keep very good stamina levels. I don't know if you noticed but low stamina = low damage rates (it actually creates a hidden modifier to your strength so you can't carry or hit as well as normal, and can no longer chop doors!)

Paul Cassel · Post by **Paul Cassel** » Tue Mar 23, 2004 12:06 am

Beowuuf, others,

I decided to persist until either the dragon was dead or I too tired to continue so started another round. It grew somewhat comical around here as my 11 year old daughter would occasionally check on my progress or lack thereof. This was before I got the new notes about the efficacy of the KU’s in the dragon fights. I KU’d up to about 70 and then proceeded onward.

From time to time my daughter would distract me to see if I could recover. I could although it took three, count them, three sessions separated by sleeps to do the job. In each session I used ven bolts, but no fuls having given up on those for better or worse. In the end I got the key and some badly needed food so am solid where I am now in KU, but unsure how to proceed. I seem to have two paths. One leads to a place where there is an iron grate, some little wizards and too many munchers. My several tries at that, both before and after the dragon, have resulted in death by muncher after my team was weakened by little wizards. Since there is a skull knight visible behind the door, I’m sure that even if I were to defeat the munchers and wizards, I’d never survive that guy as long as the munchers keep coming so I figure that must be a dead end – at least for now.

I think the room with the oiti leads eventually to a room with blue meanies, but seems possible although the oiti will be another long slog of hit and run. I am anticipating KU’ing up for this adventure more than I did for dragon.

Please if you comment, no spoilers! I would rather fail at this game than win by hitching a ride on experts’ backs. I hope you understand. I’m curious to hear where Denise is. Looking backward, I think I may have been better served by trying ROS, but too late now. This one is tough. –Paul Cassel

Toni Y · Post by **Toni Y** » Tue Mar 23, 2004 5:38 am

No story yet. But for reference, here's my party's current stats and equipment:

War is typically boosted to comparable strength values as is shown in the pic. The others get boosts whenever needed (when they go yellow-emcumbered).

Plague is pulling double duty of the second lead fighter and the party's lead magickian. Only problem with that is whenever she flings Mon Ful Irs she can't swing her axe for a while.

I should probably give Death some more fighter training so I could move Plague to full-time magic user in back row so I can keep on flinging spells left and right and not hurt the overall melee capability.

Post by **Paul Stevens** » Tue Mar 23, 2004 7:45 am

I find all this talk about character selection, KU potions,
and weapon selection amusing. It makes no big difference.
Just to prove my point, I reincarnated TOADROT, a nondescript
character whose main claim to fame is his ability to stay under
water for extended periods.

I entered the start area, kicked and stabbed three worms to
death. Fetched the flask and went straight to the Dragon
in the basement via the pit in the 'No Fireballs' room. Pretty
much naked. Without even my dagger. I killed one Giggler,
one Worm, and one Dragon with the Rapier I found lying on
the floor. Just for fun, I went upstairs and killed 31 (?) groups
of Mummies. Went up another flight of stairs and killed six
Oitus. One more flight of stairs and killed an uncounted number
of Antmen. All of this while sitting in the living room while the
rest of the family watched a movie. TOADROT was
a Master Fighter by now. And I had a pile of dragon steaks
to help me on the rest of my journey.

Movie available for the curious.

beowuuf · Post by **beowuuf** » Tue Mar 23, 2004 8:23 am

was the film the extended version of lotr by any chance? some of that must have taken awhile!

i find it amusing that KU is the 'warrior' path, i don't think i seriously touched a weapon less doing the first part quickly except for a stab from diamond edge on some knights

slide: you had a major fight to get a key...i think you know where you need to go, and since this is csb there are many ways to get there...

Post by **Gambit37** » Tue Mar 23, 2004 10:00 am

I loved reading Slide and Denise's adventures, but like Paul Stevens, I too am curious why they are finding it so hard. Yes, it is tough compared to DM, but that was the designer's intention.

You gotta realise that FTL assumed most people buying CSB would have played and beaten DM, and that they would probably use champions built up in DM. Although Wayne Holder did often state that he felt it might be too hard, Andy jaros et al kept saying that returning customers needed to be challenged.... anyway, my point is that you have to realise that CSB is a speed game -- you're trying to quickly stop Chaos from mining his Corbums, so this isn't about training your champions or spending hours looking for food -- it's a smash and grab. I know that knowledge won't necessarily help you guys who are struggling, and the 'random' nature of the dungeon doesn't help, but just bear in mind that you gotta keep moving onwards and upwards to get anywhere in CSB...

Denise · Post by **Denise** » Tue Mar 23, 2004 10:07 am

Been away on business again - just got back to another great selection of stories.

The last time the Possessions got me all I had was boots, storm and the flask. It took the lot.

Slide, I did do the room beyond where you pick up the 2nd vorpal - it was full of coatls and water elementals or screaming mouths....I found a staircase to recover while eliminating the coatls but not much more - must have missed something there. I didnt open the grate room where the green slimes were in the vorpal room.

I managed to get the knack of using neta to kill worms, and get back to sanctuary and there are no supplies in the alcoves so it s time I guess for me to progress to dain or ku. Not looking forward to either.

I did Neta but something seems missing - I cant find my way back to the big dragon and the staircase that leads up to supplies. I can find my way with ease to the water at neta, in fact there are 2 more fountains in the coutl room by the 2nd vorpal and a teleporter which takes you back to the ways.

Ros I thought I had completed, but there is no way to DDD, so I missed something somewhere. Again.

The lockpicks dont work for me at safe haven no matter how much I jiggle them. In fact, they havent worked for me anywhere...

I keep going back to Ros and Neta, trying to find what seems missing. Reluctant to progress to the other 2 ways...there should be a way from Ros to get to DDD.

I remember that the way to DDD is up a staircase above the green blob room where they dont do any damage, ros? yes I think so - its all so confusing. Got the yellow gem and survived the fireball alley and scorpions but nothing else. Just returning to the ways without to DDD or any exciting keys and stuff.

Love reading all your contributions.

Paul Cassel · Post by **Paul Cassel** » Tue Mar 23, 2004 3:22 pm

Denise wrote:The last time the Possessions got me all I had was boots, storm and the flask. It took the lot.

I only lost a worm slice I must have hit upon some solution. I suggest a save / try / restore method to determine what's up.

Denise wrote: Slide, I did do the room beyond where you pick up the 2nd vorpal - it was full of coatls and water elementals or screaming mouths....I found a staircase to recover while eliminating the coatls but not much more - must have missed something there. I didnt open the grate room where the green slimes were in the vorpal room.

I found a fireball blew open the grate door. From there, you could transport (see my message below) or drop down to the cistern.

Denise wrote:I managed to get the knack of using neta to kill worms, and get back to sanctuary and there are no supplies in the alcoves so it s time I guess for me to progress to dain or ku. Not looking forward to either.

Perhaps we're both taking our defeats here too seriously. I find the DM game most involving. I took it quite hard when my team got killed. I find here I"m unable to prevail or let it go.

Denise wrote:I did Neta but something seems missing - I cant find my way back to the big dragon and the staircase that leads up to supplies. I can find my way with ease to the water at neta, in fact there are 2 more fountains in the coutl room by the 2nd vorpal and a teleporter which takes you back to the ways.

I got to the big dragon by dropping down the trust me pit in DDD. From there, it was only run to find the exit to supplies.

Denise wrote:Ros I thought I had completed, but there is no way to DDD, so I missed something somewhere. Again. The lockpicks dont work for me at safe haven no matter how much I jiggle them. In fact, they havent worked for me anywhere...

I haven't a clue.

Denise,

I suppose we can talk freely here since it seems impossible for us to give this crowd a spoiler. As far as I can make out, we need to get four corba, one from each ‘way’ and then throw them into a fiery furnace. The problem will come moving from the DDD to where the corba are and thence to fight the troops guarding the furnace.

My plan is to grab up and store the corbum units and make one dash to the furnace rather than four. What I am unclear about now, is if we need navigate all four ways to find each corbum or if we can grab four from one way. I suspect the former. However, nothing I’ve read or heard from this group militates against us storing all four for a single dash at the furnace which is my rough plan – if ever I find even one.

In DAIN (IIRC) if you proceeded onward from there (away from the second vorpal room) you’d come to what I found to be a dead end. I never figured out how to open that way. I left the area by both dropping down to the cistern underneath. I also found a way (prove you’re a wizard ************spoiler********************* hold zo kath ra in front of the eye in the couatl room ********************** to transport to an area where I was on the wizard bridge. Here I found more couatls, a pit that wouldn’t close and an iron door. Since this was a resource run through NETA and my guys were at the end of their string, I gave up that game never solving the riddle. Did you pass that way? If you did find your way there away from the iron grate room, you are more adept than I am.

My sense of KU is that if I fight my way through the oiti, I’ll only find the blue ants and another VI altar. I say this because it’s up from where I am. This game is circular, but threads up or down like DM within circle arcs (that’s my reasoning here).

I got a skel key from a giggler so hopefully that will open something useful somewhere in KU. This leaves either a secret soon to be discovered way out of KU (to DDD?) or I need figure out how to make it past the little wizards and munchers and skul knight(s) in the no fireball room.

Along this discussion thread, I note a few arch masters wondering at our difficulty and perhaps they also wonder at your dread at facing KU now. Paul has even posted a demonstration of him performing wondrous feats with a non-descript character. Saying what can be done is surely quite different from what all can do. For example, I needed to ride my motorbike up a very steep ramp to load it onto a moving van. This is a 280 kg BMW bike. I put the bike up on one wheel, rode to the ramp and went up it at about 20 kph. Now that was a bit risky to me, but I can do such things as I’ve ridden mostly motorbikes since I was licensed to drive. That doesn’t mean, even if you saw me do such a thing in the cinema, that all could do it.

I’ll further note that whilst this thread is heavily subscribed to, you and I Denise, are the only non-masters giving it a go or who are willing to discuss it.

If you wish my advice where to proceed from here Denise, I’d suggest you try KU. Clear out the mummies if necessary. They fall easily to very light ful balls. I did mummies thrice. IMO, they generate less successfully if you continue forward, but I’m unsure. Drop down to the dragon, KU up (which I failed to do), follow it around until you’ve dispatched it. Allow plenty of real time. I needed to ‘stamina’ up several times. The dragon is tough, but very slow. I took no hits other than the locator hit upon disengagement and re-engagement. That is, as my team searched for the dragon after a sleep, we found it by being whacked ourselves by a fireball. That put us within 3 tiles which made the final location easy to find.

If you’re able to navigate or find the solution to the no fireball room, let me know that there is a key or method, but please don’t tell me. I need to eradicate the munchers to succeed here. I find that whilst engaged with the little wizards, I am get blind sided by munchers putting me in a bind from which there is no survival. Perhaps there is a way to survive this, but the next stage, which would be my fight with the skull knight(s) is clearly not doable if I’m hemmed in with a double attack from both munchers and knights; so I haven’t pursued this path again. I don’t know if one can clear out munchers, if they re-gen from another hidden switch or if they are triggered by something such as movement.

I note your discouragement here. If you choose to take another swing, please let me know of your progress. –Paul Cassel

Post by **Paul Stevens** » Tue Mar 23, 2004 3:41 pm

That doesn?t mean, even if you saw me do such a thing in the cinema, that all could do it.

Sorry if I was too frivolous. My point is that the fun of playing
CSB is in the learning. Of course I could not ride your bike into
the van. But I could learn to do it, given time and assuming I
did not destroy it during practice. Fortuately, you cannot
destroy CSB. There is always another copy on the WEB.

P.S. If I stole someone's likeness, let me know. I can try again.

beowuuf · Post by **beowuuf** » Tue Mar 23, 2004 5:48 pm

*twitch* CSB must be stopped *twitch* no matter the cost to the internet *twitch*

Post by **Lunever** » Tue Mar 23, 2004 6:25 pm

There is more than one way to solve Dain's Couatl room, the bridge is but one of them. There is an invisible teleporter in that can be activated in the Bridge area, but not, where you might expect it to be at the first glance.

Scared to Deth by Ku's knights? Ku-powered and protected by strong YaIr-shields, they are not as bad as they may seem first.

Boots, Storm and flask are a narrow choice of possesions already.

Every path leads to the DDD. You have to solve at least 3 of them, but unless you are very knowledgeable in secret connections between the pathes, you will have to do all 4. That is, you will have to aquire a special key in each path. By what path you will enter DDD is not too important (although I never fully understood the complex machinations of the last path of Ros, so should you fail to solve the Ros-DDD, it might be useful to enter by Ros, but I'm not sure about that).

4 pathes are leading from the DDD to His abode. You do not have to explore all of them, following one armed with 4 Corba is an efficient strategy. If you do all 4 instead, you'll get a reward for each one, but I recommend to think twice before following Ku to the end, for the activation af an almost endless respawning worm generator is the price for the Dragon Fang. If you decide to do Ku, do it last. The End of Neta will lead to a heavy fireball shooter blasting with infinite ammunition into the level. This is not as bad as it might seem for a priest inspired by the Wrath of God.

The Skeleton key is a very useful device, for it will open up shortcuts. Unlike other keys, it will not be consumed by a skeleton lock, with the notable exception of the uppermost skeleton lock, which I recommend to be left closed for other and less obvious reasons than loosing that key.

The possesion of the orange gem might open new ways for the ninja. If such a ninja has keen senses and is very persistent at lockpicking, he can get some well-deserved rest (not in all versions, but I think Atari/CSBWin does support this and latest RTC too).

Guest · Post by **Guest** » Tue Mar 23, 2004 6:52 pm

an almost endless respawning worm generator is the price for the Dragon Fang

That is, unless you know what you are doing. Almost every
danger has a **MUCH** simpler solution, and this is no exception.

I never fully understood the complex machinations of the last path of Ros

Proof that the learning goes on and on and on, even among the
experts.

Post by **Lunever** » Tue Mar 23, 2004 8:20 pm

Oh, and slide: invoke a magic box before crossing the muncher room, that way only a single pair of munchers will be generated, which you can kill outside the room when it follows you.