I just recently began playing DM again (see imaginatively titled 'I'm new' post below) and I've been thinking seriously about the reason for its enduring appeal.
I'm not a programmer and I don't suppose I'll ever work in any aspect of game design, but the medium is fascinating to me as a person who tries to approach things with a creative mind. I've always been more attracted to RPGs because of the hope that they offer a really immersive 'other place'. I have played a lot of different ones since I got DM with the 1 meg RAM upgrade for my Amiga 500, and particularly the newer ones don't come close to offering an experience as intense and atmospheric. It's like the David Lynch film (pick your favourite) of games.
A lot of uninitiated people might assume that the attraction to a game so old in the context of the mindboggling technological advancement of this medium is about nostalgia, which is a powereful force of course, but it's really not that. There's something to me about the limitations the creators had to work within, the relative simplicity of the graphics, sound and animation of the monsters, that gives it a true 'otherness'. The system is so neat, it really doesn't need additional decorations. I like grey bricks and mummies that say 'Rahh!'.
I just got the new 'Everquest' game for PS2 and I hadn't quite twigged that it was by the Neverwinter Nights people and would be a lot like that. It's been polished and smoothed and made so user friendly that it's become boring, kill kill kill collect loots sell loot acquire stats, in a kind of fetishistic way. Not much to engage the brain, for all the pretty animations and set-pieces.
I think the game designers might be misjudging and even underestimating the potential of their medium as a true artform. Perhaps the approach has become generally too much about committee thinking and commerce.
Anyway, those are my current thoughts. Perhaps an enlightening dungeon revolution is in order.
Chloe
if you want to see where I'm coming from, here are my paintings: http://www.chloepaintings.co.uk
Musings on the eternal appeal of DM
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Bobtonexador
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Bobtonexador
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Thanks, Beowuuf.
Actually I'm a little disappointed in myself, usually when I choose to passionately rant about something on a public message board I'm much more lengthy and theatrical about it. I was hoping this time that other people slightly more involved and clued up on current developments in the gaming industry would chime in and share their wisdom.
'Things had a strong will and slip-on sandals.'
- A line of profound poetry that me and my computer just came up with.
Actually I'm a little disappointed in myself, usually when I choose to passionately rant about something on a public message board I'm much more lengthy and theatrical about it. I was hoping this time that other people slightly more involved and clued up on current developments in the gaming industry would chime in and share their wisdom.
'Things had a strong will and slip-on sandals.'
- A line of profound poetry that me and my computer just came up with.
Well let me be the first to say "Well said"(yeah I didn't get to see this earlier as well due to dowmtime).
The user-friendly bit I can relate too....I could probably say the ovious and just relpy that gamers nowadays tend to like games that doesn't take more than 2 minutes to figure out, but i'm I'm pretty sure there's more to it than that.
other thatn that I don't really have much too add that you haven't posted already. Guess you nailed it for me Bob.
The user-friendly bit I can relate too....I could probably say the ovious and just relpy that gamers nowadays tend to like games that doesn't take more than 2 minutes to figure out, but i'm I'm pretty sure there's more to it than that.
other thatn that I don't really have much too add that you haven't posted already. Guess you nailed it for me Bob.
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FallenSeraphin
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From an imagination and emersion standpoint, DM stands the test of time, i think, for a few reasons. All the characters have hooks - interesting names, pictures or slants in their abilities - without them being explained. Zed isn't the second son of the first cousin of a king who had thrown taken away by this person and so on...or maybe he is. It's up to the player, so you can own the party you take right away.
Secondly, none of the RPG mechanics are really out in front - some minors ones you really need to know, your health, mana, etc - but in gernal eveything is hidden. Also, the simple interface helps this, it's much easier to lose yourself in a game when the game icons away to the sides, and you have a huge window for your dun geon view, a 'real' hand to pick up 'real objects.
You aren't being told alot of information, such as you have a + 1 sword of hitting, and your character is now a fifth level mage and can cast fifth level spells. Items are, again, only described by a name, usually a hook for you imagination. Is this powerful? Useless? Similarly, your levels are merely names, you don't know the experience behind them. And even if you did, spellcasting and fighting is more organica;;y rewarded - mastery of spells and weapons occurs at experience levels outwith your class levels, so you can be a journeyman fighter and not yet melee, you can gain a priest level but still have a slight chance of failign with that powerful potion.
All these are immersive like a real' adventure, not game mechancs that jarr.
The simplistic gray dungeon setting also sets up anything apart from it as more 'alive' i think - the splash of colour of the strangely discarded food (never hear of a larder, chaos!) to the moving and strange creatures coming at you. The less your brian is being fed visually and aurally, but in an immersive world, the more your imagination invests tp fill in blanks it wants filled.
Anyway, there are a few more gameplay and feel reasons for it to be somehting people still like to this day, but they have been covered before in other topics - this aspect, perhaps, has not : )
Secondly, none of the RPG mechanics are really out in front - some minors ones you really need to know, your health, mana, etc - but in gernal eveything is hidden. Also, the simple interface helps this, it's much easier to lose yourself in a game when the game icons away to the sides, and you have a huge window for your dun geon view, a 'real' hand to pick up 'real objects.
You aren't being told alot of information, such as you have a + 1 sword of hitting, and your character is now a fifth level mage and can cast fifth level spells. Items are, again, only described by a name, usually a hook for you imagination. Is this powerful? Useless? Similarly, your levels are merely names, you don't know the experience behind them. And even if you did, spellcasting and fighting is more organica;;y rewarded - mastery of spells and weapons occurs at experience levels outwith your class levels, so you can be a journeyman fighter and not yet melee, you can gain a priest level but still have a slight chance of failign with that powerful potion.
All these are immersive like a real' adventure, not game mechancs that jarr.
The simplistic gray dungeon setting also sets up anything apart from it as more 'alive' i think - the splash of colour of the strangely discarded food (never hear of a larder, chaos!) to the moving and strange creatures coming at you. The less your brian is being fed visually and aurally, but in an immersive world, the more your imagination invests tp fill in blanks it wants filled.
Anyway, there are a few more gameplay and feel reasons for it to be somehting people still like to this day, but they have been covered before in other topics - this aspect, perhaps, has not : )
newer computer games tend to be like films. in films more and more computer animations are used, therefore a fantasy movie is possible to produce in a quality ,everyone likes to have.
dungeon master was made in a very long time period(3years) nowadays simlply too much. So detail and love is less in modern computer games(also loading times...no, really three languages in one game, like a dvd....).
graphics are getting better and therefore larger, adding to the time needed to do a good looking game.(photoqualityanimation vs. single stroke drawings/) Everything has to be fast and this slows it down additionally.
Back when dm had been developed, you could make a good game with just basic programmig language and some pixels as graphics, if at all, it was o.k. as long as the idea was funny or good(more or less).start in your room/garage and make a game;
today not easy(companies, ect..)
There have been many games and therefore new concepts are rather rare (another shooter, please..)
But, there is also a good side to newer games; Graphic can be quite realistic and the wow effect is cool.Shading effects and transparency as well as a trillion colours are nice.
Furthermore, games tend to be multiplayer, so there is no great need for a brilliant story, the participants do a great deal of work, they add to the action.
We are a society that consumes very fast.
that´s it from me...
best regards ,
zooooom
dungeon master was made in a very long time period(3years) nowadays simlply too much. So detail and love is less in modern computer games(also loading times...no, really three languages in one game, like a dvd....).
graphics are getting better and therefore larger, adding to the time needed to do a good looking game.(photoqualityanimation vs. single stroke drawings/) Everything has to be fast and this slows it down additionally.
Back when dm had been developed, you could make a good game with just basic programmig language and some pixels as graphics, if at all, it was o.k. as long as the idea was funny or good(more or less).start in your room/garage and make a game;
today not easy(companies, ect..)
There have been many games and therefore new concepts are rather rare (another shooter, please..)
But, there is also a good side to newer games; Graphic can be quite realistic and the wow effect is cool.Shading effects and transparency as well as a trillion colours are nice.
Furthermore, games tend to be multiplayer, so there is no great need for a brilliant story, the participants do a great deal of work, they add to the action.
We are a society that consumes very fast.
that´s it from me...
best regards ,
zooooom
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Bobtonexador
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The shift towards realism is totally understandable and predictable. It reminds me a bit of what Disney did to cartoons and the animation industry during the 1940s. He had the monopoly and the new technology and all the most skilled artists and craftsmen, and equated improvement and progress with a move to increased realism and careful imitation of live action. Whereas to me, the best cartoons were the classic seven minute ones that were anarchic, surreal, subversive, fantastical and exploited first and foremost the physical and expressive possibilities of the medium itself, funny drawings, stylised iconic characters, 'impossible' situations, etc (Tex Avery at MGM, Chuck Jones and Bob Clampett at WB, Fleischer studios early Betty Boop and Popeye, and the earliest Mickey Mouse cartoons are good examples of these things). The technology obviously exists now to allow an almost photorealist world in games, but that doesn't necessarily equate to the most fun or playability.... the increased possibilities inherent CREATIVELY in 'bigger' games, more complex graphics etc are truly limitless and I think it would be nice, like I said, if games were really viewed more widely as an art form and individual visions had space (and time) to emerge. Individual visions of artists working primarily in games, for whom games are their medium. There's something intrinsically magical about a coherent, animated world with its own internal logic that a player can literally become immersed in, that magic really ought to be respected.
I just wanted to make it clear, I wasn't saying that there's anything wrong with gorgeous graphics, I get a kick out of them too, but not just because of their 'realism' as such. I'm really excited about the possiblities for gaming and I wish I had a bit more disposable income to spend on games. That's one of the reasons I'm glad of resources like this, to play great games for free and discuss the possibilities with poeple wo see their worth.
I know I've been doing a lot of comparing DM and other games to other forms of art, but I really think that's valid, because they are art. I think there are lessons to be learned from that because there are commonalities between all the best art, regardless of technology and timeframes.
I'm not trying to polarise us or condemn anyone. That PS2 game I singled out is fine, it's a good game, it has some really nice touches, but I'm afraid I still get a lot more involved in DM and find it a good deal more inspirational. I'm sure there are a lot of very talented and creative people who work on those sorts of games, and are to a great extent restricted by larger commercial demands and time restrictions. I suppose it's possible that though games that follow tried-and-tested commercial formulae and refine and smooth their interface continually will always exist, but I believe that if maybe there was a little more room in the industry for more risk-taking 'prestige' games with the emphasis on originality or re-imaginings of old (or very old) formats it would ultimately benefit everyone, both in terms of enjoyment and long-term rewards.
I like your avatar, zoooom. What is its origin?
Chloe
(That's Everquest graphics cross bred with Krazy Kat style drawings in some doodles from my sketchbook. Maybe it's part of my perversity, but, maybe as an illustration if what I've been saying, I actually prefer the more primitive graphics of the original Everquest to the screenshots I've seen of Everquest 2, which are a good deal more complex and realistic. The more primitive graphics have a unique sort of other-worldly beauty... once they become photoreal they sort of become like everything else...)
I just wanted to make it clear, I wasn't saying that there's anything wrong with gorgeous graphics, I get a kick out of them too, but not just because of their 'realism' as such. I'm really excited about the possiblities for gaming and I wish I had a bit more disposable income to spend on games. That's one of the reasons I'm glad of resources like this, to play great games for free and discuss the possibilities with poeple wo see their worth.
I know I've been doing a lot of comparing DM and other games to other forms of art, but I really think that's valid, because they are art. I think there are lessons to be learned from that because there are commonalities between all the best art, regardless of technology and timeframes.
I'm not trying to polarise us or condemn anyone. That PS2 game I singled out is fine, it's a good game, it has some really nice touches, but I'm afraid I still get a lot more involved in DM and find it a good deal more inspirational. I'm sure there are a lot of very talented and creative people who work on those sorts of games, and are to a great extent restricted by larger commercial demands and time restrictions. I suppose it's possible that though games that follow tried-and-tested commercial formulae and refine and smooth their interface continually will always exist, but I believe that if maybe there was a little more room in the industry for more risk-taking 'prestige' games with the emphasis on originality or re-imaginings of old (or very old) formats it would ultimately benefit everyone, both in terms of enjoyment and long-term rewards.
I like your avatar, zoooom. What is its origin?
Chloe
(That's Everquest graphics cross bred with Krazy Kat style drawings in some doodles from my sketchbook. Maybe it's part of my perversity, but, maybe as an illustration if what I've been saying, I actually prefer the more primitive graphics of the original Everquest to the screenshots I've seen of Everquest 2, which are a good deal more complex and realistic. The more primitive graphics have a unique sort of other-worldly beauty... once they become photoreal they sort of become like everything else...)
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Tom Hatfield
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Game design cannot reasonably be considered a form of art, any more than building a car can be considered a form of art. The truth is, there are so many aspects that go into developing your average game that every component qualifies as a form of art in and of itself. The amalgamation of these things may be considered a higher form of art, but I would suggest it's simply a convergence of mediums. If there's anything especially artistic about a game --- or a car --- it's probably an accident. Not everyone sees it this way, of course.
I mention this because I do subscribe heavily to the artistic --- actually, I prefer the term "expressive" --- basis in writing, graphics design, and music. An audacious software engineer might even suggest that programming is a form of art, but it's not. I can tell you this from experience as a programmer working on a degree in systems analysis. Programming is about solving problems and instantiating the solution through code. Our code may even look clever at times, but it does not constitute art.
People who make games generally aren't thinking in terms of assembling a piece of art, because art is expressive by nature, and games are not designed to express thoughts or emotions. (There will be exceptions, as always.) They usually exist to make money and give people a good time. However, the basis of a game --- the story or graphics, for example --- may be considered artistic. It would be unwise to confuse the two.
I mention this because I do subscribe heavily to the artistic --- actually, I prefer the term "expressive" --- basis in writing, graphics design, and music. An audacious software engineer might even suggest that programming is a form of art, but it's not. I can tell you this from experience as a programmer working on a degree in systems analysis. Programming is about solving problems and instantiating the solution through code. Our code may even look clever at times, but it does not constitute art.
People who make games generally aren't thinking in terms of assembling a piece of art, because art is expressive by nature, and games are not designed to express thoughts or emotions. (There will be exceptions, as always.) They usually exist to make money and give people a good time. However, the basis of a game --- the story or graphics, for example --- may be considered artistic. It would be unwise to confuse the two.
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cowsmanaut
- Moo Master
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Art forms based on problem soving and math...
M.C.Escher.. all artworks are based on mathimatical calculations of a mainly geometric type. You can see the problem solving in many images he's done.. looking at the writings on the math and formulas he used to get there is baffling. Art it self is a problem solving process of it's own. Even if you are not trying to break it down to the extent he did. Form, volume, design aspets (the rule of 3rds), complimentary colours and colour theory, etc etc. There are a lot of rules to visual art. Especially commercial art.
Next we come to Lyrics and petry.. rhyme and measure. Working out not only ways to create complimentary statements and rhymes but have a message. Often means juggling words and phrases to get something that not only fits together with a tempo but also make some sense one would hope. Even music itself has mathimatical properties.. classical music has it's own rules and as such can be broken down to recreate similar peices of music following the same tone and feeling.
My point? Art is in many forms about problem solving.. finding an appealing solution is the goal. I could go on but I think you see where I'm going with this..
moo
M.C.Escher.. all artworks are based on mathimatical calculations of a mainly geometric type. You can see the problem solving in many images he's done.. looking at the writings on the math and formulas he used to get there is baffling. Art it self is a problem solving process of it's own. Even if you are not trying to break it down to the extent he did. Form, volume, design aspets (the rule of 3rds), complimentary colours and colour theory, etc etc. There are a lot of rules to visual art. Especially commercial art.
Next we come to Lyrics and petry.. rhyme and measure. Working out not only ways to create complimentary statements and rhymes but have a message. Often means juggling words and phrases to get something that not only fits together with a tempo but also make some sense one would hope. Even music itself has mathimatical properties.. classical music has it's own rules and as such can be broken down to recreate similar peices of music following the same tone and feeling.
My point? Art is in many forms about problem solving.. finding an appealing solution is the goal. I could go on but I think you see where I'm going with this..
moo
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Bobtonexador
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I should have known I would get in trouble if I used the word 'art'... it is an extremely troublesome word. I suppose my definition of art for the purposes of this discussion was a human-made entity or creation that has the power to put a beholder into some kind of altered state, and which in some way enriches or changes them... in a new way that would otherwise not have happened, however apparently slight or trivial.
My problem in trying to get my point across is that my positive responses to things are often intangible and non-verbalisable in origin, then I have to make them back into difficult loaded words. Sorry about that. Certainly with games I have no technical knowledge relating to the mechanics of their construction. However, on principle, I do not believe that mathematics/ problem-solving/technological mastery and 'art' are mutually exclusive, quite the opposite, as Cowsmanaut touched on. As far as I'm concerned there is no real artistic 'expression' without some degree of mastery over technology, tacit knowledge of the physical materials it's necessary for mortal people to use to embody their creative intention, however basic. A paintbrush is technology. And I think 'expression' is a bit of a red herring, it's come to imply the emotional outpourings of a glorified ego, whereas I see there being creative decisions, however small-scale, made in every solution to a problem in a even in an 'industrial' process like game design, and even in the games that really are made primarily to satisfy a marketplace. If the effect of the collective effort is transformative/inspiring/authentically other-worldly it has some of the merits of good art.
What I'm saying is, I don't think that 'art' in its positive, transformative, joy-giving properties has to be so neatly removed and elevated from new consumable media and entertainment. I accept that it is to a great extent, in terms of perception and marketing, but I'm just saying there's another way of looking at it as a consumer and possibly approaching it as a designer.
Happy mummy bludgeoning to you all.
Chloe
My problem in trying to get my point across is that my positive responses to things are often intangible and non-verbalisable in origin, then I have to make them back into difficult loaded words. Sorry about that. Certainly with games I have no technical knowledge relating to the mechanics of their construction. However, on principle, I do not believe that mathematics/ problem-solving/technological mastery and 'art' are mutually exclusive, quite the opposite, as Cowsmanaut touched on. As far as I'm concerned there is no real artistic 'expression' without some degree of mastery over technology, tacit knowledge of the physical materials it's necessary for mortal people to use to embody their creative intention, however basic. A paintbrush is technology. And I think 'expression' is a bit of a red herring, it's come to imply the emotional outpourings of a glorified ego, whereas I see there being creative decisions, however small-scale, made in every solution to a problem in a even in an 'industrial' process like game design, and even in the games that really are made primarily to satisfy a marketplace. If the effect of the collective effort is transformative/inspiring/authentically other-worldly it has some of the merits of good art.
What I'm saying is, I don't think that 'art' in its positive, transformative, joy-giving properties has to be so neatly removed and elevated from new consumable media and entertainment. I accept that it is to a great extent, in terms of perception and marketing, but I'm just saying there's another way of looking at it as a consumer and possibly approaching it as a designer.
Happy mummy bludgeoning to you all.
Chloe
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cowsmanaut
- Moo Master
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- Joined: Fri Jun 30, 2000 12:53 am
- Location: canada
It doesn't matter if people want to accept the fact or not.. but art involves math and equasions. Period.
What is perspective if not angles and geometry.. proportional decreasement in preceived size over distance. what is a tempo but a measurement of time, velocity, and pitch. That makes up a song.. and it's complex patters.
If those can be considered art.. then so to is programing. if it can be done.. calculated on the computer.. then it involves math of some kind.. and equasions. For this is the native language of the computer.
just food for thought..
What is perspective if not angles and geometry.. proportional decreasement in preceived size over distance. what is a tempo but a measurement of time, velocity, and pitch. That makes up a song.. and it's complex patters.
If those can be considered art.. then so to is programing. if it can be done.. calculated on the computer.. then it involves math of some kind.. and equasions. For this is the native language of the computer.
just food for thought..
We had a quote at the front door of our engineering building at university, by Ave Orup - unfortunately web trawling can only produce half of it!
It boiled down to Engineerign is not a science, it is an art. Science looks at the questions of how the universe works and finds the singe answers for them. "Engineering problems are under-defined, there are many solutions, good, bad and indifferent. The art is to arrive at a good solution. This is a creative activity, involving imagination, intuition and deliberate choice."
It's better with the start of the quote : )
It boiled down to Engineerign is not a science, it is an art. Science looks at the questions of how the universe works and finds the singe answers for them. "Engineering problems are under-defined, there are many solutions, good, bad and indifferent. The art is to arrive at a good solution. This is a creative activity, involving imagination, intuition and deliberate choice."
It's better with the start of the quote : )
@ chole/bobtonexador ^^
puh, the origin of my avatar was a picture... well, it is a bit weird and some time ago.
First of all, I drew some images on paper and after looking at one head in particular another day, i realised that it would actually look much cooler if i flipped the page upside down.
this way i redrew it and it became the basis for my future avatar. (got it still somewhere, a creature, black hued skin with pointy, very large ears. The mouth had been protected by a scarf and a wizard´s head, more or less magic and all.)actually a bit different from the one i have atm...
One day, i had to have an avatar for this site and i thought that this creature-type would suit me.
Alas, what shall i say, it turned out to be more effort than i tought to paint it into the computer.
I managed to create several pixel-images (wand, outside, poison cloud), slightly resembling the creature i had had in mind, having used the colours of the original dungeon master champions; but i could not decide which one i should use.
So i had started with a "wand holding zoooom" at novice ranking, switching at apprentice level to the one i have now ...
p.s. where is yours??
puh, the origin of my avatar was a picture... well, it is a bit weird and some time ago.
First of all, I drew some images on paper and after looking at one head in particular another day, i realised that it would actually look much cooler if i flipped the page upside down.
this way i redrew it and it became the basis for my future avatar. (got it still somewhere, a creature, black hued skin with pointy, very large ears. The mouth had been protected by a scarf and a wizard´s head, more or less magic and all.)actually a bit different from the one i have atm...
One day, i had to have an avatar for this site and i thought that this creature-type would suit me.
Alas, what shall i say, it turned out to be more effort than i tought to paint it into the computer.
I managed to create several pixel-images (wand, outside, poison cloud), slightly resembling the creature i had had in mind, having used the colours of the original dungeon master champions; but i could not decide which one i should use.
So i had started with a "wand holding zoooom" at novice ranking, switching at apprentice level to the one i have now ...
p.s. where is yours??