I checked out hidden Skills-section at http://dmweb.free.fr/ and also used Search-gunction but found no answer.
Does anyone confirm or deny following.
"When using Re-Incarnate also champion's hidden skills are reseted"
This can make lot of sense, because if you use for example one champion that has hidden skills of
Apprentice Fighter (4 3 0 0)
Novice Ninja (0 3 1 0)
This champion would be quite good when resurrected, because he keeps hidden skills. If Re-Incarnation resets these hidden skills, then Re-Incarnate is not so good compared to resurrect.
If we assume, that we have this character Re-Incarnated it probably has hidden skills something like (0 3 0 0) and (0 2 0 0) when at same main levels ( Apprentice, Novice ).
If this holds true, then Re-Incarnate is not so awesome compared to Resurrect. While you get better attributes, you get worse hidden skills.
Anyone can confirm this?
Re-incarnate and hidden skills
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Trantor
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When you reincarnate the characters, they lose all their skills, meaning that experience is resetted to 0. The advantage is twofold: First, your attributes are a little bit better. Second, you can easily gain the lost experience back, gaining levels in the process, which boost your attributes and stats further. So, while you have stronger characters in the beginning if you resurrect them, reincarnated characters are a bit stronger when you get to the later parts of the game.
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HJP
I already know that. That's why I'm only asking if these hidden skills are also resetted to zero when Re-Incarnating? You said that "meaning that experience is resetted to 0" and this means also hidden skills?
Because if they are, Re-Incarnate is not so awesome compared to Resurrect. Without these hidden skills Re-Incarnate is much better but with them, situation is quite different.
Because if they are, Re-Incarnate is not so awesome compared to Resurrect. Without these hidden skills Re-Incarnate is much better but with them, situation is quite different.
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Guest
I understand that these hidden skills give some boost to different things. http://dmweb.free.fr/DMSkills.htmTrantor wrote:As far as I understand it, these "hidden skills" are nothing else but experience points, but I could be wrong about that. Can anyone else with deeper insight provide more information?
"There are twenty skills that each champion can use and in which he gains experience. The first four skills (0 to 3) are the "basic skills" displayed in the champion sheet screen (Fighter, Ninja, Priest, Wizard). When experience is gained in any of the hidden skills 4 through 19 then that experience is also added to the experience in the associated "basic skill". For example, experience added to skill number 10 is also added to skill number 1."
And so on. Almost every action increases basic skill ( Fighter, Ninja... ) AND some hidden skill. For example Chop increases "basic" fighter skill AND hidden fighter skill number 1.
So like if you are using Chop-attack and you have hidden fighter skill 1 level for example 4 you probably make quite a blow with Chop-attack even if your other skills are not very good.
So I'm saying that if Re-Incarnate resets these hidden skills, you probably won't get as good hidden skills to your character with same "actions/training" and such that you would get if you use Resurrect.
If this is true, then Resurrect is not that bad, because you get better hidden skills altough you lose some mana/health/ability etc points.
So Resorrect is not necessarily that bad as it would be without these hidden skills.
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HJP
http://www.dungeon-master.com/forum/vie ... c&start=50
2I've noticed that berserks are MUCH more effective on monsters once its hidden skill is built to about 200000 in hex, more actualy hits and more extreme damage (200+) on a regular basis, especially against golems."
If this is true, then hidden skills are more than just experience.
2I've noticed that berserks are MUCH more effective on monsters once its hidden skill is built to about 200000 in hex, more actualy hits and more extreme damage (200+) on a regular basis, especially against golems."
If this is true, then hidden skills are more than just experience.
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Trantor
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Ok, I now see what you mean, sorry for being so dumb. The question is what these "hidden skills" actually do. I suppose that they determine how soon you will be able to use attack options on weapons or how likely it is that a certain spell is cast successfully. If this is the case, it would probably not matter if you reincarnate or resurrect the characters, since you will eventually become good enough to cast every single spell without failure and use every attack option. If these hidden skills also influence how much damage you can deal with attacks or spells, then this would be different, and resurrecting would indeed not be such a bad idea. Personally, I presume that damage is only dependent on attributes such as Strength and Wisdom and probably the amount of experience as well, but of course, this is just speculation, so I could be very wrong.
Yes, but the point is that these 'hidden skills' are all at low levels too...really, re-incarnate buys you the ability to jump swiftly up in the basic level fast, and gain you base stats like health.
No character has more than 2000 exp in any sub-skill (and only then if they are jounrneymen like halk or gothmog), so really these bonuses are negligable compared to what will eventaully be built up.
No character has more than 2000 exp in any sub-skill (and only then if they are jounrneymen like halk or gothmog), so really these bonuses are negligable compared to what will eventaully be built up.
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ChristopheF
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The visible skills represent your experience level in the 4 basic skills (fighter, ninja, wizard, priest). Each of them is the sum of 4 associated hidden skills.
So I guess that when the game resets the basic skills to 0, it must also reset the hidden skills to 0, otherwise this would break the sum results.
Anyway, by using reincarnation, you lose all the skills of the champion, but they are so low that you can get them back very quickly with some training. As beowuuf said, the experience you would keep by resurrecting is absolutely negligible compared the experience you aquire during the game. It only helps for the very beginning of the game.
For example, Halk is a journeyman in Fighter skill (4000 experience points). At the end of the game, he will probably be a master, having hundreds of thousands of experience points (like 256000 or 512000). At this point, the 4000 experience points you had at the beginning of the game are ricidulous: you can earn them in a few minutes of gameplay.
So reincarnation is definitely better than resurrecting, even if the hidden skills are reset along with the visible ones.
So I guess that when the game resets the basic skills to 0, it must also reset the hidden skills to 0, otherwise this would break the sum results.
Anyway, by using reincarnation, you lose all the skills of the champion, but they are so low that you can get them back very quickly with some training. As beowuuf said, the experience you would keep by resurrecting is absolutely negligible compared the experience you aquire during the game. It only helps for the very beginning of the game.
For example, Halk is a journeyman in Fighter skill (4000 experience points). At the end of the game, he will probably be a master, having hundreds of thousands of experience points (like 256000 or 512000). At this point, the 4000 experience points you had at the beginning of the game are ricidulous: you can earn them in a few minutes of gameplay.
So reincarnation is definitely better than resurrecting, even if the hidden skills are reset along with the visible ones.
Last edited by ChristopheF on Tue Aug 02, 2005 8:09 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Christophe - Dungeon Master Encyclopaedia
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HJP
Or not. 2000 exp on single subskill, but if we count all subskills we get...beowuuf wrote:Yes, but the point is that these 'hidden skills' are all at low levels too...really, re-incarnate buys you the ability to jump swiftly up in the basic level fast, and gain you base stats like health.
No character has more than 2000 exp in any sub-skill (and only then if they are jounrneymen like halk or gothmog), so really these bonuses are negligable compared to what will eventaully be built up.
For example
Novice Ninja (3 2 1 0)
Apprentice Wizard (2 3 3 3)
we have 2000+1000+500 + 1000+2000+2000+2000
That makes 10500...
Also "If the Experience Multiplier of the current level is not 0, then Experience is multiplied by the Experience Multiplier"
This means that if we use hidden wizard skill 3 with that champion and get base exp of 10, we get following EXP from just experience levels.
Apprentice Wizard gives us multiplier 3. That makes 30 exp to Wizard skill. And hidden Wizard skill 3 gives us also multiplier 3 so that makes 30 EXP more. This is also added to basic Wizard skill.
"When experience is gained in any of the hidden skills 4 through 19 then that experience is also added to the experience in the associated "basic skill". For example, experience added to skill number 10 is also added to skill number 1."
In this case hidden skill doubles EXP gain.
Also Novice ninja ( 2. level ) and Apprentice Wizard ( 3. level ) does not give any significant boost to attributes, when Re-Incarnated.
So if my assumptions are correct, Resurrect seems to be an excellent option. Maybe even better than Re-Incarnate.
Only problem when playing "fair" is that you don't know what you should do to maximize EXP gain. But if you exactly know hidden skills and things that affect on each hidden skill, Resurrect seems to be better option than Re-Incarnate.
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HJP
Yep, you probably can. But if you look at my post.ChristopheF wrote: (256000 or 512000). At this point, the 4000 experience points you had at the beginning of the game are ricidulous: you can earn them in a few minutes of gameplay.
I assume that you get EXP multiplier also from hidden skills.In the beginning that can easilly make 6X multiplier to EXP gain. Eventually during entire game session you get lots of more experience multipliers if you use hidden skills correctly. That can compensate little weaker mana/heath/attributes.
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HJP
You are sure? Because if we take for example following hidden skills:ChristopheF wrote:The visible skills represent your experience level in the 4 basic skills (fighter, ninja, wizard, priest). Each of them is the sum of 4 associated hidden skills..
Novice Ninja (3 2 1 0)
Hidden skills EXP is 2000+1000+500
It means that character must be apprentice ( EXP limit 2000 ) and not novice ( EXP limit 1000 ), if base level is base on just sum of EXP of hidden skills.
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ChristopheF
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What does that mean?Apprentice Wizard gives us multiplier 3.
The "Experience Multiplier" is a property of each level in the dungeon. For the same action, you will earn more experience at Lord Chaos' level than in the Hall of champions.
Christophe - Dungeon Master Encyclopaedia
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HJP
http://dmweb.free.fr/DMSkills.htmChristopheF wrote:What does that mean?Apprentice Wizard gives us multiplier 3.
The "Experience Multiplier" is a property of each level in the dungeon. For the same action, you will earn more experience at Lord Chaos' level than in the Hall of champions.
"Here is the simplified algorithm used to determine the experience you will earn by performing an action:
* Experience = Experience Gain associated to the action you perform (see table below)
* If the Experience Multiplier of the current level is not 0, then Experience is multiplied by the Experience Multiplier"
Do I understand something wrong?[/b]
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HJP
I admit I was wrong. I thought that this "Experience multiplier" means multipliers from pure experience levels. Like Neophyte has multiplier 1, Novice has 2 and so on. But it means just dungeon level multipliers ( Weird kind of expericence )
But if there is not that kind of multiplier, then Re-Incarnate is better.
But if there is not that kind of multiplier, then Re-Incarnate is better.
Yeah, as christophe says Halks 2000/2000 in two skills pales in comparision (especially in skills that are always), whereas the ~100 health you can gain, stamina and the strength gains will be much better.
"That makes 10500... "
Where are you getting your numbers - characters have 3000 - 5000 xp assigned in DM
"Experience multiplier"
Level multiplier I beleive, not from skills. Paul can correct me if I am wrong in this - since this is the basis of your argument, that would be a good thing to clear up!
"In this case hidden skill doubles EXP gain."
Yes, all new XP is added to two places - but a) only the basic or special skill is used for calculations (you are more diverse) and b) all new XP is added - so does it matter if you have it before or if comes later, you aren't double doubling XP gains by having some already
"Novice Ninja (3 2 1 0)"
You aren't what you are equating your 3 2 1 to. If it's from CSBuild, then 1 = 250, 2 = 500, 3 = 1000, which combied is 1750 - so still 250 short of apprentice level, in novice level.
"Resurrect seems to be an excellent option. Maybe even better than Re-Incarnate. "
You only get 15 level transitions at most pwr skill, with which to build up all your stats. You have an infinite supply of experience gain. So ressurecting a charatcer hobbles you (sometimes in a small way) in terms of stats for the end - at least in DM. CSB applies penalties to reicarnation, so shifting the weight back to ressurect as a better option (you keep stats plus expereince)
For example, I used to ressurect my (journeyman) fighters just to have good options at the start. The gained melee around about the start level four with axe. When I reincarnate, or when I have an inexpereinced guy at their side, they gain melee - well, about the start - middle of the worm level.
Meanwhile, I have only gained a craftsman level with the journeyman fighter, which is 1 x stat boost. The reincarnated guy will be a respectable way to craftsman and have 4 x stat increases. This is the difference between an 'interesting' level four, and being able to stand toe to toe with worms (backed up by reincarnated priests).
Mana is even more imprtant to gain, and even gain fast. At 40, you get faster regeneration - at 2 points per interval, not 1. And wisdom affects the regen speed. So a reincarnated wizard will have more raw mana to practice spells and so regain levels and even exceed the castign ability of the journeyman you pick (this is why I avoid gothmog always for boris/wuuf)
Anyway, I am still not 100% sure how hidden skills work - so let's keep digging! Is their a skill multiplier? Are there certain skills you just can't gain quickly in, so you would want to keep the character pristine (gain the ability to chop instantly not after much swinging)?
"That makes 10500... "
Where are you getting your numbers - characters have 3000 - 5000 xp assigned in DM
"Experience multiplier"
Level multiplier I beleive, not from skills. Paul can correct me if I am wrong in this - since this is the basis of your argument, that would be a good thing to clear up!
"In this case hidden skill doubles EXP gain."
Yes, all new XP is added to two places - but a) only the basic or special skill is used for calculations (you are more diverse) and b) all new XP is added - so does it matter if you have it before or if comes later, you aren't double doubling XP gains by having some already
"Novice Ninja (3 2 1 0)"
You aren't what you are equating your 3 2 1 to. If it's from CSBuild, then 1 = 250, 2 = 500, 3 = 1000, which combied is 1750 - so still 250 short of apprentice level, in novice level.
"Resurrect seems to be an excellent option. Maybe even better than Re-Incarnate. "
You only get 15 level transitions at most pwr skill, with which to build up all your stats. You have an infinite supply of experience gain. So ressurecting a charatcer hobbles you (sometimes in a small way) in terms of stats for the end - at least in DM. CSB applies penalties to reicarnation, so shifting the weight back to ressurect as a better option (you keep stats plus expereince)
For example, I used to ressurect my (journeyman) fighters just to have good options at the start. The gained melee around about the start level four with axe. When I reincarnate, or when I have an inexpereinced guy at their side, they gain melee - well, about the start - middle of the worm level.
Meanwhile, I have only gained a craftsman level with the journeyman fighter, which is 1 x stat boost. The reincarnated guy will be a respectable way to craftsman and have 4 x stat increases. This is the difference between an 'interesting' level four, and being able to stand toe to toe with worms (backed up by reincarnated priests).
Mana is even more imprtant to gain, and even gain fast. At 40, you get faster regeneration - at 2 points per interval, not 1. And wisdom affects the regen speed. So a reincarnated wizard will have more raw mana to practice spells and so regain levels and even exceed the castign ability of the journeyman you pick (this is why I avoid gothmog always for boris/wuuf)
Anyway, I am still not 100% sure how hidden skills work - so let's keep digging! Is their a skill multiplier? Are there certain skills you just can't gain quickly in, so you would want to keep the character pristine (gain the ability to chop instantly not after much swinging)?
Last edited by beowuuf on Tue Aug 02, 2005 8:58 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Lol, dammit you ruined my post ; )
Yeah, it's to make sure that it isn't too painful to gain levels in the later game and make it be more linear
And yes, as I thought if there isn't some hidden skill multiplier, then reincarnate is better in DM. As I said, in CSB it becomes like a 'challenge' option : )
Yeah, it's to make sure that it isn't too painful to gain levels in the later game and make it be more linear
And yes, as I thought if there isn't some hidden skill multiplier, then reincarnate is better in DM. As I said, in CSB it becomes like a 'challenge' option : )
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HJP
Oh yeah. I assumed that Experience Multiplier is something else that dungeon multiplier that is better expressed for example as Level multiplier, because digging deeper in the dungeon hasn't always nothing to do with EXP ( Skeleton key trick )."That makes 10500... "
Where are you getting your numbers - characters have 3000 - 5000 xp assigned in DM
"Experience multiplier"
Level multiplier I beleive, not from skills. Paul can correct me if I am wrong in this - since this is the basis of your argument, that would be a good thing to clear up!
"In this case hidden skill doubles EXP gain."
I checked just"Novice Ninja (3 2 1 0)"
You aren't what you are equating your 3 2 1 to. If it's from CSBuild, then 1 = 250, 2 = 500, 3 = 1000, which combied is 1750 - so still 250 short of apprentice level, in novice level.
http://dmweb.free.fr/DMSkills.htm
* 0. - (0)
* 1. Neophyte (500)
* 2. Novice (1000)
* 3. Apprentice (2000)
* 4. Journeyman (4000)
* 5. Craftsman (8000)
* 6. Artisan (16000)
* 7. Adept (32000)
* 8. Expert (64000)
* 9. Lo Master (128000)
* 10. Um Master (256000)
* 11. On Master (512000)
* 12. Ee Master (1024000)
* 13. Pal Master (2048000)
* 14. Mon Master (4096000)
* 15. Archmaster (8192000)
Yes, my main argument was EXP gain from Experience levels ( Neophyte and so on ). If this does not hold, then I admit I'm wrong.Anyway, I am still not 100% sure how hidden skills work - so let's keep digging! Is their a skill multiplier? Are there certain skills you just can't gain quickly in, so you would want to keep the character pristine (gain the ability to chop instantly not after much swinging)?
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HJP
Check http://dmweb.free.fr/DMChampions.htmbeowuuf wrote:Yeah, i meant where do you assume (3 2 1 0) has Novice Ninja? If the skills are (2000 1000 500 0) then they will be an apprentice ninja, and only 500 short of journeyman - you can check this in CSBuild
For example Gothmog has (3 2 1 1) so scrapes into journeyman level
"5. Boris Wizard Of Baldor (Male)
Novice Ninja (3 2 1 0)"
Same page says that 9.Gothmog (Male) has "Journeyman Wizard (4 3 2 2)"
Aha, yeah, 4 3 2 2 is the initial increments (that CSBuild uses), which go 1 = 250, 2 = 500, 3 = 1000, 4 = 2000 - which is why everything is out of whack! No wonder it seemed confusing!
So Boris actually does have (3 2 1 0), but as I said that means (1000 500 250 0) - 250 short of Apprentice
Similarly, (4 3 2 2 ) is actually (2000 1000 50 500) not (4000 2000 1000 1000)
Whew, so that's all settled. 'Experience multiplier' is confusing, and DM actually sets a sub-increment of neophyte in certain sub-skills so DME site is confusing too. Whew : )
Christophe could you amend the descriptions to reflect this?
So Boris actually does have (3 2 1 0), but as I said that means (1000 500 250 0) - 250 short of Apprentice
Similarly, (4 3 2 2 ) is actually (2000 1000 50 500) not (4000 2000 1000 1000)
Whew, so that's all settled. 'Experience multiplier' is confusing, and DM actually sets a sub-increment of neophyte in certain sub-skills so DME site is confusing too. Whew : )
Christophe could you amend the descriptions to reflect this?
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ChristopheF
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Experience multiplier:
On the page, I wrote:
On the page, I wrote:
How can I make these statements less confusing?Moreover, each level has an associated experience multiplier. In Dungeon Master, the deeper you are in the dungeon, the more experience you will gain for any given action. In Chaos Strikes Back, it is the opposite: the deeper you are in the dungeon, the less experience you will gain.
and
If the Experience Multiplier of the current level is not 0, then Experience is multiplied by the Experience Multiplier
Beowuuf, I don't understand what you mean. Is it just that the experience points I have on my page are just twice as large as they should be? (250 instead of 500 for neophyte, etc...) ?DM actually sets a sub-increment of neophyte in certain sub-skills so DME site is confusing too.
Christophe - Dungeon Master Encyclopaedia
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ChristopheF
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In CSBwin there are 18 values ranging from 0 to 16384000... Does that mean there are 18 levels and not 16 ?
Christophe - Dungeon Master Encyclopaedia
For example.How can I make these statements less confusing?
"Moreover, each dungeon level has an associated dungeon level multiplier. In other words, if you are at level 1 on dungeon, dungeon level multiplier is 1. At dungeon level 2, it is 2 and so on. In Dungeon Master, the deeper you are in the dungeon, the more experience you will gain for any given action. In Chaos Strikes Back, it is the opposite: the deeper you are in the dungeon, the less experience you will gain."
and
"If the dungeon level multiplier of the current level is not 0, then Experience is multiplied by the dungeon level multiplier."
Or anything where you tell that multiplier depends on level of dungeon your party currently is.
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ChristopheF
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The multiplier values are defined in the dungeon file itself. It is not 1 for level 1, 2 for level 2, etc
I might replace "experience multipler" by "dungeon level experience multiplier".
I might replace "experience multipler" by "dungeon level experience multiplier".
Christophe - Dungeon Master Encyclopaedia
For whatever reason Paul only allows you to add discrete numbers for the experience when editing a game. The first one starts at 250, half of the experience for neophyte level (I guess because DM uses that for an initial sub-skill value). The rest increment in doubles so equte to the initial experience needed for each level. Your experience values are right, but the (4 2 1 1) etc that I assume comes from CSBuild is wrong (and indicates a level above what it should be).
I believe it was zyx that said there were infact two more level slots above the experience for archmaster. I dunno what they would have been for.
I believe it was zyx that said there were infact two more level slots above the experience for archmaster. I dunno what they would have been for.
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Trantor
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Only two levels above? Shouldn't it be three? As far as I recall, the argument for those levels was the completed Firestaff, which adds two more levels to all classes. So, if you are already Archmaster and equip the Firestaff, the game might have some trouble if there were no levels above. Additionally, the Pendant Feral also adds a Wizard level, so three more levels after Archmaster would be needed.