Ropes

[Chaos Awakes]

I was under the impression that ropes are for climbing UP out of pits as falling down them does no real damage so who cares?
I've based a huge puzzle in my dungeon on climbing out of pits, and find it doesn't work. I'm sure I climbed out of pits in DM.

[beowuuf]

you are wrong...very wrong! : )

[beowuuf]

you could do it with dsas in csbwin

[Chaos Awakes]

Well, I honestly can't see the point of a rope then. Who cares about having to go to all the trouble of putting a rope in a characters hand and then click "climb down" when you only lose a few stamina points anyway?
I've never climbed down a pit in my life - I just jump down them.

Now, climbing out of a pit - that's a useful feature. Hang on - something in my mind is telling me about grappling hooks - was there another game with grappling hooks where you could climb out of pits?

Anyway, George, how about a flag on pits that allows the designer to decide whether or not any particular pit can be climbed out of with a rope. Then, my puzzles would work and it wouldn't suddenly allow people to get to higher levels in CSB when they're not supposed to.

[beowuuf]

You lose 40 points of health to each party member and potentially damage limbs - that's nothign to be sneezed at, especially not to starting party members

The 'clibing up a pit' has one big problem - where do you put the parrty? A pit can have up to four sides - how can you choose which side you come out of? Facing?
Otherwise it wasa feature I was goign to add in CSBwin dungeon myself, so have no problem with it being available in RTC
I owuld suggest having it able to be associated with a new item type - say a grapnel. You oculd clone a 'rope' from a grapnel if you want a 'normal' seeing rope to have this property, but otherwise pits and normal ropes stay the same, so no other dungeosn get affcted

[Ameena]

Yeah falling down pits is bloody annoying, especialy if they hurt their poor little tootsies and you don't have the mana (or a flask) available to cure it. Even worse if you immediately have to run away from something but the injury has put them into the yellow...hmm falling through from Lord Chaos's lair in DM is an example that springs to mind...

[beowuuf]

Or, in other words, ropes have thier uses - conflux also springs to mind - so many pits to explore. It's like saying 'who needs the tap tap sound, it's only 2 hp to thump into walls. All mounts up!

[Chaos Awakes]

I would suggest that you climb out of a pit by clicking "climb up" when the pit is in front of you rather than directly above you. Then you would arrive logically on the same side of the pit on the level above

[Suule]

Hmmrrr... intresting concept. I will definetly consider that for DM2.5

[beowuuf]

Good in theory, but dungeon geometry doens't dictate that the squares around below are the squares around above. Facing directly below the pit would work better I believe.

My typing has become attrocious lately...or at least my error correction algorithm

[Ameena]

How would you physically climc up a pit like that anyway? Sure, it's fine enough to have a rope, but how are you supposed to attach it to something on the floor above you so you can climb up it? Not unless one of your party can fly or jump really high or something, hehe. You know how smooth those dungeon corridors are...

[zoom]

Yeah, fastening that rope is a major problem..
logic comes to an end if one person climbs up or down...
several people can give each other a hand , but then why use a rope in the first place?
But:
what if there is no free space on the level above?
possible to climb up? yes? do you then fall down immediately?
several pits above each other? are there different length of ropes then?

Do "concealed pits" count as normal pits?

For a pit that has a time counter pen../close../open../close...you need good timing, I guess..

If there is free space above(1), do you automatically reach that spot or do you need the right facing?? if it doesn´t matter, how do you decide which place to occupy first when there are several free spots(2 to 4?)
If there is a monster that moves above, what has priority or the "right" to reach that spot ? the monster that is moving there or the party that is climbing up?
(don´t know if that is relevant at all,i.e. whether monsters move in RTC the level above..)
Is there any clue/message for players whether the pit is in general climbable or impossible to climb up? Do they have to find out on their own?

Why don´t use stairs?

[Chaos Awakes]

Well obviously it doesn't automatically work for every pit or games like CSB where it teleports you all over the sodding place wouldn't work logically any more
It would have to be a flag on a pit which dictated whether or not you can climb out of it, and therefor it is down to the dungeon designer to make sure the relevant space on the level above is clear for climbing up to.

What about something with "ceiling pits"? What are the point of these anyway, I mean I never have to use them as the RTC engine automatically draws a ceiling pit on the floor below a pit. So why do they exist as a seperate item in the editor?

[beowuuf]

Dkid my thing get lost in the typing? Rather than suggets a major engine change that invalidates the dungeon format (again) a grapnel object is created (grapnel, logical for climbing up) with that behavious coded to the engine. You can clone it if, in your case, you want it to instead look like a 'rope' Nothing else will be affected except dungeons deciding to use this grapnel object or a clone of it. It is then up to the dungeon designer to not make it available or to somehow have teleporters disabling its affects on key puzzles

Ceiling pits - you might teleport the party after falling down a pit - ceiling pit disguising it. Plus I assume he has simply made every engine graphic available whether it is particularly needed or not. Plus, if you clone a ceiling pit you can have any wall decoration quite logically without hassles, such as staligtites etc

[George Gilbert]

What about something with "ceiling pits"? What are the point of these anyway, I mean I never have to use them as the RTC engine automatically draws a ceiling pit on the floor below a pit. So why do they exist as a seperate item in the editor?

They're only really needed interally to speed up the drawing algorithm. When you specify a pit in the txt file, the engine automatically adds a ceiling pit to the floor below. This means that when RTC comes to draw the current view, it only has to check for items on the current level.

Please feel free to ignore the ceiling pits when designing your own dungeons!

Dkid my thing get lost in the typing? Rather than suggets a major engine change that invalidates the dungeon format (again) a grapnel object is created (grapnel, logical for climbing up) with that behavious coded to the engine.

Not to me anyway. As you suggest, the only sensible way of coding such a feature is to create a new item with a new "method" of climbing up.

As for how it would work - not sure. Of particular issue (as has already been pointed out) is where you would end up - I think the best answer would be on the square one "forward" from where you were standing (so if you were facing north underneath a pit, you would end up on the tile one north of the pit on the level above). If there was no such square available for the party (wall or monster in the way) then the climb up would fail. I'll certainly have a bit more of a think about it.

[zoom]

If you fail to climb up facing N , you have to try (S,E,W) to make really sure that you cannot climb up.

[DragonsLover]

Now, climbing out of a pit - that's a useful feature. Hang on - something in my mind is telling me about grappling hooks - was there another game with grappling hooks where you could climb out of pits?

Well, in Dungeon Hack, you can use Grapping hook to climb up pits. I've never used it, but I think that, when you select "Climb up", you're above the pit without falling, but if you move one step around and you come back over the pit, then you fall!

[Me]

Now in my mind, that last post makes the most sense in figuring a way around the "which square does the party end up on" question after climbing out of a pit. This could be an useful way of peering up and seeing what lies on the level above... But on the other hand, what if the pit you climb out of is completely surounded by walls on the level above. If you're hovering, you'll be trapped forever!

I still like the idea of being able to climb out of a pit; it adds makes three dimensional travel through a dungeon more interesting and adds the potential to hide important dungeon elements to be discovered by the party once they locate a grappeling rope.

[DragonsLover]

Well, just make sure that the grapping hook has 2 actions:

- Climb up
- Climb down

So easy! It's doable!

[linflas]

and now, for something more complicated :
- clone/rename methods or create dummy methods
- change/add methods to objects (max=3)
- a new "operated by" rule for triggers : the method (choosable between all methods available) you execute when you're standing on it.

of course, this would work for the grapping hook with a 'climb up' method that does nothing special except saying to the engine "hey, you know what ? i've just been executed !".

and now imagine the infinite possibilities...

[Sophia]

The second thing can already be done.

I like the third idea... this could even lead to something like DSAs for RTC.

Granted, taking it that far is a rather complex idea. I would definitely not mind helping out on something like that, though. (assuming it's C/C++ anyway, that's the only 'serious' programming language I know!)

[DragonsLover]

Or, if the pit above is surrounded by walls, then just display an "impossible" message on screen, like:

"There's no place above to throw the grapping hook."

But I think my idea to be "above the pit" is good. Here I continue:

If the pit is surrounded with other pits on the ceiling, only the one above the party is considered like the good one. If there's another pit in front of the party (always on the ceiling), the party have to be right under the pit.

Of course, if there's a pit above another pit (this one is on the floor), it's impossible to go up. It's only possible to go down into the pit in front of the party. But if the party goes down using a grapping hook and then get up again, the party is between the pits. This time, they can't get up into the pit on the ceiling: they're already using the grapping hook on the pit where the party is. The "Climb up" option would become shaded.

If the party is surounded by pits all around on the floor, only the pit where the party is facing is considered the good one to go down. If, however, the party is right above a pit because it used a grapping hook, it's only the pit right under their feet that is considered as the good one. If you have to go into the pit in front of you (well, this is kinda something unuseful because they are near), just fall into!

Well, I finally got a pit in Dungeon Hack. When I used the grapping hook in front of the pit (that is on the floor), I climbed down. It's like DM. But, when I used it to climb up, I had to be under the pit to do so and my character was in front of the pit on the floor above, it depends the direction I was facing.

You understand? It's not too much complicated? Well, this is my idea if there's a future grapping hook in the game.

[George Gilbert]

Done for V0.35

[Sophia]

Er.. done what, exactly?

[George Gilbert]

Added a grapple object which has the ability of "climb up" (as well as climb down).

By clicking on climb up when underneath a bit, the engine attempts to move the party one step forward on the floor above. It that tile is free then you climb up and onto that tile; if it isn't then you stay where you are.

This is directly analagous to the behaviour of climb down (if a pit is there, move one step forward on the floor below).

[JCG]

Devious suggestion/improvement for the grapple object ( You should not make this too easy !)
If the party doesn't succeed to climb up, then it falls back, and the party takes the damage corresponding to the fall of one level (OUCH!!).
To be able to climb up, one step forward on the floor above must be possible, but the following conditions must also be met:
- The landing square must be free of any monster.
- The character throwing the grapple must be strong enough relatively to the total load of all the characters. The stronger he is and the lighter the load of the party, the more chance the party will succeed to climb up.
...And don't forget to drain significantly the stamina level of grapple thrower.
- To be able to preserve some puzzles and impose mandatory paths in the dungeon while the party has a grapple, it must be possible for the dungeon designer to impose "no climb up" pits.
Suggested solutions:
-no climb up attribute to the pit.
-climb up possible only if the possible landing square has a grate or a crack (on which the grapple can get a grip)

[beowuuf]

Umm, shouldn't you just wait to see the grapple he's done? : ) I believe the monster thign is already there.

The strength thing, no, there is a certain limit to realism here...a partyy has a rope and can climb down a pit - how? They can't tie it to anything, and no strength issue is involved.
Significant drain in stamina for the thrower? Why? It's light as a dagger, axe, etc. Is this a penalty against using it - don't include it then! Should we inforce the same penalty on a rope?

Also, why ask for an addition to the format, when if you don't want the ability to climb up certain pits a) don't include the grapple in your dungon, or b) stick 'activated by grapple' teleporters around that pit, that push the party back onto the pit, that only activate if the party has been standing below (delayed weight activated pad below). Changes to the format = the need to include backwards compatibility, and also will mean the DM and CSB dungeons will need altered when they don't even include the object (unless it is an optional flag, but I can't think of thigns that don't need a null description if you aren't using any attributes)

[George Gilbert]

- The landing square must be free of any monster.
...And don't forget to drain significantly the stamina level of grapple thrower.

Already done.

If the party doesn't succeed to climb up, then it falls back, and the party takes the damage corresponding to the fall of one level (OUCH!!).
- The character throwing the grapple must be strong enough relatively to the total load of all the characters. The stronger he is and the lighter the load of the party, the more chance the party will succeed to climb up.

Interesting - I'll have a think about them...

My immediate concern is about the need to have "text" for the idaes (you would need something otherwise it wouldn't be obvious to the player why the party had just been damaged without moving or failed to climb up). Not a problem at all from a programming point of view, but I'd rather avoid it from a game experience point of view.

- To be able to preserve some puzzles and impose mandatory paths in the dungeon while the party has a grapple, it must be possible for the dungeon designer to impose "no climb up" pits.
Suggested solutions:
-no climb up attribute to the pit.
-climb up possible only if the possible landing square has a grate or a crack (on which the grapple can get a grip)

Not so keen on these I'm afraid.

If you have two pits above each other then you won't be able to climb up already. This means that if you have a whole floor you want to restrict climbing up to, then you can just put a blank (other than the pits) level between that and the floor below.

If there's only a single pit (or area of pits), you can always force the party to give up the grapple (i.e. by making it part of a puzzle) before you get to the pit in question...

[beowuuf]

Strength vs grapple (stamina) - surely the thrower is just throwing a rope/grapple, and then the party climbs up themselves - just like the party are climbing down themselves via a rope?

I think the grapple should be a simple item just like the rope is, but that's just me : )

[George Gilbert]

Strength vs grapple (stamina) - surely the thrower is just throwing a rope/grapple, and then the party climbs up themselves - just like the party are climbing down themselves via a rope?

I think the grapple should be a simple item just like the rope is, but that's just me : )

It is.

All attacks have a certain draining effect on stamina whether that be a stab with a dagger or a full melee with a heavy weapon. The rope (as far as the game engine is concened) is a weapon and climbing up is an attack method which also drains stamina; not alot, but more than most attacks though.