[Fixed for V0.39] Stamina gain on level up

TheMormegil · Post by **TheMormegil** » Sat May 27, 2006 2:12 am

I think a bug has crept in since v0.37 regarding the amount of stamina gained on leveling up. It seems really stingy now. Maybe I can give some more concrete figures tomorrow if you are unconvinced but a quick test and the final stanima values of a csb game seem to indicate this.

beowuuf · Post by **beowuuf** » Sat May 27, 2006 2:17 am

Interestingly i noticed in conflux that stamina was a pig to gain - I think it's not noticeable in DM / CSB becuase of the values the charatcers start with.... not sure...

TheMormegil · Post by **TheMormegil** » Sat May 27, 2006 1:00 pm

Ok, I just did a test to compare v0.37 with v0.38.
Training from unskilled to archmaster ninja :
Stamina gained in v0.37 = 541
Stamina gained in v0.38 = 158

Post by **Lunever** » Sat May 27, 2006 2:01 pm

Since there is a random factor in it, I'm not sure, but I think this might be also true for other stats, esp. for Mana.

George Gilbert · Post by **George Gilbert** » Sat May 27, 2006 2:12 pm

Unfortunately for players, V0.38 is about right - the bug was in V0.37 being far too generous...

In fact, 158 is on the high side for the possible range in RTC so you've rolled quite luckily on your stats gains. If you try exactly the same experiment in DM, I suspect you'll get somewhat lower gain!

Post by **Lunever** » Sat May 27, 2006 2:26 pm

So is this a stamina-specific issue, or does it concern mana and health also, and possibly other stats (it's ok to scale it down for 38 if it was to much, I just would like to know - after all in FTL it wasn't a problem to have a tough fighter rise to 999 health)?

TheMormegil · Post by **TheMormegil** » Sat May 27, 2006 3:15 pm

Yeah its stamina specific. I noticed a big drop in stamina gains with v0.38 and assumed it was a bug.
I didn't notice much difference with health.
Mana is a little more generous at low levels in v0.38 but this was discussed before it came out.
FYI the health gains in the above experiment were 347 and 345 for v.037 & v0.38 respectively, so not much change there.

Post by **Lunever** » Sat May 27, 2006 3:18 pm

I wanted to test a bit around and use various savegames from different parties with different levels to get a broader range of results, but it seems that once upgraded to 38 you can't get a character back to 37, so if I want to get a broad range of samples tested in 37 I'd have to start all over. Is there any method to hack a savegame in order to port it back from 38 to 37?

Since there will be 39 soon (I hope): If I from a player's perspective don't want to start all over again with the 2 parties I played recently, what party would get the better result on average once archmaster of all arts, the too generously stat-risen 37 party, or the too generously reincarnated 38 party? That is, for which of these parties should I invest the time to make them archmasters to probably get the more optimal end-result?

TheMormegil · Post by **TheMormegil** » Sat May 27, 2006 4:04 pm

Well you can write down the stats of the characters in v38 and create characters with those stats in the v37 editor.
I reincarnated a party in csb with v38. They ended up very strong, 3 of 4 had 900+ health, the char below 900 health had 400 mana with the serpent staff in hand. They all had stamina around 500 by the end.

Post by **Lunever** » Sat May 27, 2006 5:23 pm

At what level, did they have these stats, archmaster, or lower?

TheMormegil · Post by **TheMormegil** » Sat May 27, 2006 9:05 pm

Lower, training to archmaster without items designed to help is too slow!

Lor
H 953
S 615
M 305
Lo Master Fighter
On Master Ninja
Lo Master Priest
Um Master Wizard

Skelar
H 922
S 529
M 209
Expert Fighter
On Master Ninja
Expert Priest
Lo Master Wizard

Buzz
H 848
S 447
M 393
Expert Fighter
On Master Ninja
Um Master Priest
Um Master Wizard

Plague
H 953
S 422
M 356
Expert Fighter
On Master Ninja
Lo Master Priest
Um Master Wizard

TheMormegil · Post by **TheMormegil** » Sun May 28, 2006 9:09 pm

Ok I did some experiments with CSBwin and the results were intruiging.
It seems that stamina gained is highly dependant on what it was to start with.

Starting stamina = 10, stamina at archmaster ninja = 23, gain = 13 (130%)
Starting stamina = 40, stamina at archmaster ninja = 94, gain = 54 (135%)
Starting stamina = 400, stamina at archmaster ninja = 985, gain = 585 (146%)

Post by **Lunever** » Sun May 28, 2006 9:28 pm

I always felt that in FTL stat increase was dependant on initial stat values, I'm not sure though whether RTC behaves like that. George? Can you tell us how RTC is calculating stat increase? Especially after years of being a paper & pen RPG player and DM who also has designed a couple of game systems I'd be very interested to know.

TheMormegil · Post by **TheMormegil** » Mon May 29, 2006 1:36 pm

RTC doesn't seem to take current stat value into account.
So it will give the right amount of stamina at times by accident but will be too generous for low staminas and too stingy for high staminas.

Post by **Lunever** » Mon May 29, 2006 3:07 pm

Does anyone know how exactly FTL calculated the stat increase?

George, is this something that might possibly be different in 39 than it is now in 38?

George Gilbert · Post by **George Gilbert** » Mon May 29, 2006 3:24 pm

Yes - I've done some more experiements now, and I agree that it depends on the current maximum stamina value and i've got a good grip on the probability distribution too - so this should work as expected in V0.39

Post by **Lunever** » Mon May 29, 2006 3:51 pm

That's good. Because having the increase be dependent on the initial stat ensures that a smart robe like Tiggy or Petal will always be a better caster than a dumb tank like Halk or Stamm, even if they are both archmaster of all arts. Currently the relative difference in spell-casting ability (i.e. Mana) will diminish during the course of character developement.

One question though: Among the many things I like in RPGs is building up characters. I recently started all over twice because my previously well-developed characters paled in the light of changed levelup rules. Because of that I would like to get an educated guess whether I rather should stop building up my new party because I'd better start all over again in 39 anyway or not. So the question is, will the new rules make all stats increase more than now, or will they be less advantageous at low levels but more at high levels or high stat values?

Post by **Lunever** » Mon May 29, 2006 3:54 pm

PS: Are we talking about stamina solely here or about all stats?

George Gilbert · Post by **George Gilbert** » Mon May 29, 2006 4:02 pm

Just stamina - all the other stats work correctly in V0.39.

As TheMormegil pointed out, currently V0.38 is too generous for low level stamina gains, and too stingey for high ones. By the time you get to archmaster in all 4 skills though, the values balance out and a V0.38 trained character will be about the same as a V0.39 one.

If you want to gain the best possible stats use V0.38 to gain early levels, and then V0.39 to gain higher ones....although doing this on purpose might be considered exploiting the engine and therefore a bit underhand

TheMormegil · Post by **TheMormegil** » Mon May 29, 2006 4:10 pm

Sweet.
The stamina gain also seems affected by the type of level gained in order (most to least) Fighter > Ninja > Priest > Wizard.
Is that factored in too?

Post by **Lunever** » Mon May 29, 2006 4:12 pm

Well, I think the difficulty adaption works fine to counter any stat exploiting - after all you could have any character by importing from a custom dungeon (although I unfortunately have no idea how the hidden stats increase since you can't use the editor to peek into savegames, not even read-only; I hope that will change in some future editor release).

So what do you define as "early levels". And wouldn't I need to consider initial values as well as the level upon the release change?

Does anyone know for sure whether Mana increase has been independent from intial value in FTL or not (the same goes for health)?

Post by **Lunever** » Mon May 29, 2006 4:17 pm

BTW: All my questions would be obsolete if you'd be so kind to just post how 38 calculated stats and how 39 will calculate it.

TheMormegil · Post by **TheMormegil** » Mon May 29, 2006 4:21 pm

IMO only stamina increase is dependant on current max value in FTL. And it is independant of level (i.e. gain at neophyte->novice = 6 Master -> Archmaster)
Health and mana increase are independant of current value and dependant on level (i.e gain at neophyte->novice much smaller than 6 Master -> Archmaster)
Hope that makes sense.

George Gilbert · Post by **George Gilbert** » Mon May 29, 2006 4:22 pm

The stamina gain also seems affected by the type of level gained in order (most to least) Fighter > Ninja > Priest > Wizard.
Is that factored in too?

Yes

use the editor to peek into savegames, not even read-only; I hope that will change in some furute editor release

Not a chance.

I very strongly believe that the secrets of the dungeon should remain a secret known only to the dungeon designer. It is their decision whether or not they want to share that information, and how (e.g. distributing the txt file so it can be seen in the editor, or releasing - possibly partial - maps as image files).

So what do you define as "early levels". And wouldn't I need to consider initial values as well as the level upon the release change?

Yes, which makes it impossible to give an exact value. As a rough estimate though, I'd say the break point is at about 30 levels in total (i.e. about 7-8 in each discipline).

Does anyone know for sure whether Mana increase has been independent from intial value in FTL or not (the same goes for health)?

I'm pretty convinced it is. Now having played about with levelling up alot, if there is an effect, then it's far less than the random-ness factor (and therefore not noticable).

Post by **Lunever** » Mon May 29, 2006 5:26 pm

Ok, assuming I want to keep my party and accept the exploiting in order to challenge the auto-difficulty: I got Lor, Kazai, Buzzzzz and Petal reincarnated according to the rather generous reincarnation rules in 38, I just recently started all over so they are rather low-level now. By now the are all adept priests and novice fighter/ninja/wizard except petal who is also apprentice wizard. What would be a level with a good probability to result in the optimal change?

Edit: To be more precise: How long can I continue to play, without having to decide between proceeding in 38 and losing relative stamina or waiting for 39?

Editor: Ok, than it would be nice in order to be able to give proper feedback about character developement to be able to peek read-only just in character's hidden stats from a savegame only, not the dungeon. It would make it easier to do manual adaption to ones characters by re-creating them in a custom dungeon accordung to the new rules (but how do I know what anti-poison my characters have after a couple of level-ups; so how yould I clone them If I don't know their stats in the first place)

TheMormegil · Post by **TheMormegil** » Mon May 29, 2006 5:48 pm

By my reckoning you should reincarnate them in v0.38 and not train them at all. Import them into v0.39 unskilled. Thats if the new stamina rules work similar to how it works csbwin.

Post by **Lunever** » Mon May 29, 2006 6:02 pm

PS: George: Maybe my question can be generalized and simplified as well: Does your estimation about 7-8 levels concern reincarnated characters of DM only or CSB too (since currently CSB characters just have higher initial stats and thus might have an earlier "early" level compared to DM characters)?

Post by **Lunever** » Wed May 31, 2006 5:44 pm

After having played a good deal past the exploiting optimum I would like to have at least the coming couple of level-ups behave according to the V0.39 rules, but, when will V0.39 be available?

George? I think you mentioned some time ago that V0.39 will be a quick bugfix follow-up for V0.38. Is this still valid, or are there still new bugs to be fixed or new features to be implemented, that keep you from releasing it? If so, can you make an RTC.exe available that does have the levelup-rules updated?

George Gilbert · Post by **George Gilbert** » Thu Jun 01, 2006 1:46 am

George? I think you mentioned some time ago that V0.39 will be a quick bugfix follow-up for V0.38. Is this still valid, or are there still new bugs to be fixed or new features to be implemented, that keep you from releasing it?

That certainly was / is the plan, but real life caught up and so havn't been able to do that much on RTC recently. Once I get some time and get back to it, V0.39 should follow soon after. Translating that into a time / date is a bit more tricky, but I would hope to measure it in terms of lots of days rather than lots of weeks...

Post by **Lunever** » Tue Jun 13, 2006 1:45 am

I found that 39 really does give you more total stamina compared to 38 (which is of couse ok since this is as it is supposed to be).