[Fixed for V0.42] Monsters cast spells through doors

[R.K.]

Should monsters be trying to cast spells through opaque doors (such as reinforced wood)?

[George Gilbert]

Monsters *should* only try to cast spells through a door if there is a reasonable chance of the situation being better (from a monsters point of view) as a result.

So, for example, if a monster has a fireball attack and the door is destroyable by fireballs (as wooden ones are) then it will cast it against the door in the hope that it will destroy it and then be able to get closer to the party to attack it.

If however the door is not destroyable, or for example, the monster only has a poison attack (so could not possibly destroy the door), then it shouldn't try to cast it.

If you can let me know what monster it was, what spell it was and exactly which door it was and I'll let you know if it is a bug or not!

[R.K.]

I think a swamp slime may have tried to attack a door, or even a wall. At the moment, however, the only time I remember clearly is when a wizard's eye shot lightning at its Key of B door after the snake maze on DM level 10. I believe part of the explosion was visible around the door, and I may not have been standing directly in front of it. It seems like the eye should not have been aware I was on the other side.

I don't remember hearing it try to open the door with a zo spell, although it didn't have much time to cast again, as the game crashed when I tried to save before opening the door (apparently due to running out of memory; Firefox is terribly wasteful).

RTC (V0.41) Diagnostic file - Sun Aug 06 12:48:26 2006

Error:
an access violation exception.

Stack Dump:
utilMemBlock.CreateFromMemory(pointer 0x00000000, int 1983);
utilB.AddBlock(pointer 0x007CF9E4, string "SAV");
RTC.ProgStateSaving();
RTC.DoFrame(int 109);
RTC.WinMain();

Fortunately the save from level 9 was intact, but it was from just before testing whether ful bro neta would allow me to survive running straight through the fireball trap (it did), so I lost a fair bit of time and have been mainly experimenting with the editor since then.

By the way, do fireshield or spellshield protect against lightning bolts?

[Gambit37]

I've seen a lot of this in SS under 0.42 demo and it's just weird.

I think that:

Monsters that have good hearing or sense of smell should maybe detect the party through closed solid doors and have a go at attacking.

Monsters without these or only good eyesight shouldn't know the party are beyond a closed solid door and shouldn't attack.

Monsters that continually attack through closed solid doors spoil surprise traps.

It's fine for monsters to have a go at the party through gates or doors with holes in.

Can we have a discussion about this as I think it's flawed as it currently stands.

[Lunever]

I support Gambit in this - it should make a difference whether a door is solid or partially transparent. However, since there are so far no separate vision/smell/hearing parameters for monsters, I suggest allowing monsters to notice the party beyond a closed solid door simply if the door tile is the only tile between the monster and tha party, that is both standing right in front of the door.

Of course this would also require to remove another issue which I consider to be a bug - there shouldn't be monsters that have a perception range of only 1 tile as long as no light modifiers are used. If light modifiers are not implemented minimum perception range should be 2.

[George Gilbert]

No need for a discussion - this is just a bug I've introduced a couple of versions ago.

It used to work as I described above in earlier versions, and it does again now in V0.42.

[Gambit37]

But your post doesn't make it clear if you're talking about doors that can be seen through or solid doors:

"So, for example, if a monster has a fireball attack and the door is destroyable by fireballs (as wooden ones are) then it will cast it against the door in the hope that it will destroy it and then be able to get closer to the party to attack it. "

It doesn't make sense for monsters to start attacking you if they can't see you, unless all their other senses compensate somehow and that's pretty unfair on the player and far enough away from DM for me to not like this feature in RTC.

[George Gilbert]

that's pretty unfair on the player and far enough away from DM for me to not like this feature in RTC.

How can you say you don't like it when you havn't even tried it!

I completely understand that the bug caused behaviour that was bad (i.e. attacking all doors all the time), but with it fixed, the behaviour is almost identical to what you're suggesting.

For the behaviour to be different, there has to be a door with holes in it that is fireballable / zoable (of which there are very few in most dungeons) and a monster one side of it that's got a powerful enough fireball attack to destroy it / zo attack and the party on the other side, with the two being on the same row or column and within the monsters sensory range.

I genuinely don't believe you'll be able to tell the difference without setting up a test dungeon to explicitly check it. Certainly in a "real" dungeon, you'll virtually never come across a scenario where what you suggest would produce behaviour that is different from what the V0.42 behaviour is...

[Sophia]

What I am wondering is if the monsters will do this only when the party is nearby, or will they blast doors randomly just for the fun of it?

I'd hate to come up to the Dragon Den in CSB, for example, and find all the grates pre-blasted.

[George Gilbert]

a monster one side of it ... and the party on the other side, with the two being on the same row or column and within the monsters sensory range.

[Gambit37]

For the behaviour to be different, there has to be a door with holes in it that is fireballable / zoable (of which there are very few in most dungeons) and a monster one side of it that's got a powerful enough fireball attack to destroy it / zo attack and the party on the other side, with the two being on the same row or column and within the monsters sensory range.

Er, a bit confused now....

Monsters *should* only try to cast spells through a door if there is a reasonable chance of the situation being better (from a monsters point of view) as a result.

So, for example, if a monster has a fireball attack and the door is destroyable by fireballs (as wooden ones are) then it will cast it against the door in the hope that it will destroy it and then be able to get closer to the party to attack it.

My comments were based on your scenario above, which suggests that monsters will be able to fireball a solid wooden door even when they should have no possible idea that the party is behind it. That's why I asked for clarification of what doors trigger the new behaviour. It still doesn't make sense to me that a monster can fireball a door that it can't see through, which is what you seem to be suggesting. Or maybe I'm just fick?