underwater level from a teleporter - help

Crimson Ghost · Post by **Crimson Ghost** » Sun Dec 17, 2006 9:48 pm

greetings

Ive been messing about with Dmjava lately, I want to make a level thats under water, sort of like the one thats in one of the EOB games - cant think which game off hand

- I thought i had it cracked by altering the teleport graphics and it looks, ok , but i cant work out how to get a wav to play at the same time, Im no programmer so changing the code is probably out of the picture, ive tried using events, but they just seem to leave a blank area in the underwater level - a square with no water/teleport- So If any one has a good lateral thinking solution Id be happy bunny- cheers

Oh also I wanted to use a png file instead of the gif for the altered teleporter/water effect, so that the effect was subtle, but it didnt work

beowuuf · Post by **beowuuf** » Sun Dec 17, 2006 10:02 pm

Lol, funnily I could advise you quite quickly of methods in both CSBwin and RTC for that effect, but not quickly with DMJava - you have done what I would theorise would be the best methods.

I think the trouble is that DMJAva still sticks to the old DM concept of one tile type (so a teleporter or an event square). If I were you I would look to trying to alter floor item graphics instead to have the desired look

Alternatively , perhaps you can create an alternative missile graphic that looks like water when it explodes on the party's tile. The explosion sound can be a bubblign or drip. All you would need to do would be to have shooters on that level that constantly fire if the party is on that square. Not the most elegant soloution, especially if you have a large level though

Crimson Ghost · Post by **Crimson Ghost** » Sun Dec 17, 2006 10:14 pm

Ah Rats!,Tis as i feared, Ill Keep thinking of a way even if it kills me - again

Cheers

ian_scho · Post by **ian_scho** » Tue Dec 19, 2006 8:24 am

Beowuuf's right, it's tricky with DMJava.

Kelly may have a good suggestion for you, though. Why not PM him? He's been tinkering with the Java code, and is quite inventive getting around things like this.

Crimson Ghost · Post by **Crimson Ghost** » Fri Dec 22, 2006 11:50 am

I had thought of contacting kelly, but ive kinda got it to work myself, Ive modified the teleport graphics and tinted the level walls so that the level looks aquatic, my biggest problem had been how to get it sounding right
and i tried a variety of conveluted ideas until i simpley used a multi switch to teleport the party onto the level and the same switch to trigger a sample, its ok not very elegant and it cuts out a few different puzzle ideas by changing the teleport. I dont know how to set it up so that the pc's get damage unless a certain piece of equipment is present - drowning damage - you have to make sure that when the party leave the water level that you turn of the sample or else it just keeps on going. Like ive said its not elegant but its about right, Something better could be done but i think it would involve changing code.

I downloaded a 3ds model of a shark and then took the appropriate shots needed to convert it into a dmjava monster but, I cant work out what noise an attacking shark makes

beowuuf · Post by **beowuuf** » Fri Dec 22, 2006 12:24 pm

I would imagine the worm rawr would work nicely : ) Or maybe the higher pitched rats 'snick'

ian_scho · Post by **ian_scho** » Fri Dec 22, 2006 12:37 pm

Ahh, clever. The teleporters don't actually do anything, but you get teh graphics (from an alternate directory or file) anyway.

Crimson Ghost · Post by **Crimson Ghost** » Sat Dec 23, 2006 6:55 pm

You can still use the teleports as teleporters, which allows you to do simulate currents like in eob(?) - em still cant remeber which one has the water level -

I think that maybe if i combine the sounds of say the rat and the worm with a splash or similar watery sound that might work for the shark

I also need to check which way the code flips the teleport graphics - horizontal or vertical - cause I might try to apply a similar technique to make a rainy level or a snowy level, Im not sure it would look to good if it flips the image up and down but would probably be ok if its side to side

If I could work out a way of changing the party foosteps to complement the graphics - crunching through snow etc - that would be sweet

ian_scho · Post by **ian_scho** » Tue Dec 26, 2006 8:05 am

I dont think that you can change the footsteps sound like that

beowuuf · Post by **beowuuf** » Tue Dec 26, 2006 6:29 pm

Well, you can disable normal footsteps and spoof footstepps with a new type of pressure pad with the new sound...maybe... right?

ian_scho · Post by **ian_scho** » Tue Dec 26, 2006 6:47 pm

It's a good point and should work if you didnt need teleporters as well. You'd also be placing them everywhere!
Plus there is a memory leak, I believe, that the dmjava doesnt 'release' the sound each time it is played...

Crimson Ghost · Post by **Crimson Ghost** » Tue Dec 26, 2006 7:53 pm

The teleport graphics flip up and down, so I dont know if it would look too great as snow. once I discovered that I must admit to losing heart a bit, a snowy level would have been cool - Yetis, snow wolves, killer snowmen, Santa

, etc -

I have to admit to not really knowing what a memory leak is, Ive heard of them but, im not sure exactly how they manifest themselves. I do know that the sound/samples often dont play correctly in dmjava but i thought that was probably my wheezy old pc

I dowloaded some of the files that kelly has changed but ive still not installed them yet, Ive been so busy going off on tangents that ive just not got round to it, have you guys found the changes useful.

I Think dmjava is great, but i have a wish list as long as my arm, for tweaks and changes, mainly to the editor, I keep having puzzle ideas that when i try to implement them they dont work, Im never sure if its the editor or just my own ineptitude. One thing that ive been trying to do is get some orc Bowmen that ive made fire arrows they just dont seem to do it no matter what i try

oh yeah, hope you had a good one

beowuuf · Post by **beowuuf** » Tue Dec 26, 2006 8:00 pm

A memory leak is when a programme doesn't release resources, so you slowly lose them over time until *bam* the programme doens't work, or worse yet somehting else like your op system can't work

DMute was bad for having one in an older version

Not to detract from DMJava, but have you looked at the capabilities of RTC? : ) It has tile-intependant objects, lots of mechanics for creatign soudns and effectsm, and also ways to have monsters do alot of things - it currently apes the DM2 environment including the rain/lightning effects

Just a thought : )

Crimson Ghost · Post by **Crimson Ghost** » Tue Dec 26, 2006 8:40 pm

Cheers for the clarification on memory leaks.

Since you first mentioned rtc - and csbwin - I have been thinking about trying them out, Im playing through the origonal dm in rtc at the moment I did look at the editing instructions but they looked a bit daunting for my poor brain, I guess that there is an editor with an interface more like the one in dmjava - dmute? - Ill go and have another look at the encyclopedia utility page, but it gives me the fear a bit, so much stuff and i dont know what i need, also Ive got lots of objects that ive created for dmjava. will it be fairly easy to convert them?

Onward to RTC - They dont still shoot deserters do they?

beowuuf · Post by **beowuuf** » Tue Dec 26, 2006 10:56 pm

The interface is ok - don't be scared at the amount of objects, you just need to be aware alot are decoration or in the case of wall items some are different looks for the same switch type

Just look at the original DM dungeo nand go on fro mthere or ask

Converting from DMJava... probably not, different mechanisms, so you will need to do them again I'm afraid, but then hopefully they should all have parallels that are easy to do!

ian_scho · Post by **ian_scho** » Wed Dec 27, 2006 8:11 am

I have to say that I found the DMJava app most 'accessible' to jump in and build, plus as a pretend Java programmer I always had in mind to implement some tweaks... But alas, lack of time.

Noone gets shot for creating dungeons here, in any format. Just recreating your original puzzles again in another format will take some time, I suppose.

At the end of the day it's the way you channel our poor champions through your dungeon, and not the format it's released in, that's important.

Crimson Ghost · Post by **Crimson Ghost** » Thu Dec 28, 2006 8:15 pm

yeah! Im with you on the accessability of dmjava, I had a look at dmute - I dont think this is the right editor for rtc ? could be wrong- and found myself thinking fondly of poor old Dmjava, with all its annoying little problems and quirky traits, and call me flighty, but I cant just abandone it
that easily.

It doesnt mean I cant fiddle around with other dm clones... just dont tell dmjava

Have a good New year

beowuuf · Post by **beowuuf** » Thu Dec 28, 2006 9:14 pm

Dmute isn't for RTC, it just converts DM games to RTC

RTC as its own editor that is nice

Crimson Ghost · Post by **Crimson Ghost** » Thu Dec 28, 2006 9:52 pm

Ok

I just looked at George gilberts site and it says that the editor is packaged with the game, um dont know how i could have missed that, unless on some subconcious level im attempting to appear more obtuse than i am

I will go and investigate...again!

cheers

Crimson Ghost · Post by **Crimson Ghost** » Fri Dec 29, 2006 6:56 pm

I now know why i could'nt find the editor, I was using RTC_V24, that i downloaded ages ago, the editor that comes with RTC_v44,looks cool, ive only had a quick look but it looks like there are lots of possibilitys and DM2 sweet!. I'll need to have proper look now

cheers

Kelly · Post by **Kelly** » Fri Dec 29, 2006 8:35 pm

The underwater level is something I've been working on myself - the idea being taken from Black Crypts I think it was - or Shadowcaster (I forget which).

The use of teleporters in this fashion is a good idea, but it depends on the actual theme one wishes to create. Also a new directory (or folder) will have to be used to store the default graphics of the teleporter.
I have begun to work on the actual backdrop (the dungeon view - back.gif) to give the impression of an underwater theme. This allows us to also use walls, switches, pillars and other decoration, making the end result more "real". The "water" has been given a transparency, and floor plates have been placed which play the sound as if one was swimming through water.

I have yet to implement any monsters, but for testing purposes maybe it might be worth making them immaterial beings. This will give them a kind of transparency, which might give more of a watery feel to it? I'm just guessing here, I have yet to try it.

As for adding sounds to teleporters, you will have to create two switches - one for the teleporter and one for the sound you wish to play once the teleporter has been activated - otherwise you will just hear the "zap" kinda wav sound.

For party footsteps I used pressure pads throughout each dungeon level, which in turn are assigned to a switch which plays the wav sound specified.

Also, if your looking for sound effects, here's a link to the site I use ( if you don't already know):-

http://www.findsounds.com/

The snow idea is great. I didn't think of that!
The teleporter will flip like you said, but correct placement of the graphics might be possible this way. You could also create this using alternate graphics from within the game, but will need several switches to create an "animation" effect.

It might be worth you messing around with different aspects of the graphics to accomplish this goal. I have myself used graphics that one wouldn't normally have used for that certain thing.

If you would like any help in this area, it would be no problem to share the knowledge I have gathered so far.

Crimson Ghost · Post by **Crimson Ghost** » Sun Dec 31, 2006 7:21 pm

Hey kelly

It would be great to be able to use events,doors and pillers in the underwater level,but at the moment it eludes me. I wonder if you know if its possible to change the teleport graphics to png or even animated gifs? that would solve a lot of problems. At the moment I have in my test underwater level- Drumroll please

- A Shark.
Which looks ok but I need to tint it in a similar way to the level walls because it looks a little odd - too colourful compared to the level walls - Which has got me thinking that if i use normal objects from elsewhere in the dungeon - not underwater - they too are going to look a little weird.

Another thing ive still not worked out is how to make the party drown if they dont have a certain object, beowuuf suggested using spells/launcher - or something like that - which I still havent fully looked into though as im typing it does occur to me that you can set teleporter to teleport only spells...so there might be a way of triggering a launcher to fire a spell like poison cloud...Hmmm need to think that one through, hopefully something like that will work, I was going to work the reason for the party being able to breath underwater into the plot, but the more options the better

Im not exactly clear on how your going to use back.gif - changing code/cunning or a bit of both but, If it was possible to select an overlay for the level, by that i mean an animation or opaque layer I think it would
solve the visual aspects of making an underwater/snow/ rain level/desert dust storm.......

Its cool that your working with the back.gif, because i was thinking the other day about wether it would be possible to change the code a little to allow you to slowly, on a timer, fade from one Back.gif to another, this way you could have day and night backgrounds. I dont know if this is possible any opinions?

A snow level would be great but I think it would be a lot of hard work, to get it feeling right and not just a white level...probably worth it though

Ive been checking out RTC_v44 and theres lots of really great new ideas in that, its just a shame it doesnt run to well on my stone age pc

I realise that Dmjava was probably programmed as "just" a Dm clone but
I Love the idea of taking it out of the dungeon - Hey dont get me wrong dungeons are cool

- So Im well up for sharing ideas and knowledge,with you and ian_scho or anyone else interested, there seems to be plenty of folk working on stuff for other clones, it makes sense to work together - Gung ho!

Now Im off to install those changes you made to the code,I like the idea of using the door mechanics to Create destroyable objects - Everytime i go to Install them i end up getting distracted and find myself working on something else, like the colour of sharks or the right noise orc bowmen should make etc.

Ive got lots and lots of ideas and questions but they can wait for the moment

Cheers for SFX link

Kelly · Post by **Kelly** » Sun Dec 31, 2006 7:57 pm

To change the teleporter graphics to PNG you must tell the code the new file format. This is simple to do if you have the right tools for editing the code. Personally I use DJ - although I have been told by Ian that Eclipse is just as good. In your unfamilair with the code, I will change this myself and email you the .class file, if you wish.

As for animation, it is still beyond my ability. This will require the entire code to be re-written with a later version of Java, to enable animated Gifs.
Germanny will back me on this one as well.

Using PNG will enable you to create a "smoother feel" to the object in question. Actually you can use a number of graphical formats, but as Ian has pointed out this will depend on the specs of the PC in question. Not everybody has a "fast" PC, so personally I use either GIF or PNG.

Creating a "cycle" for the back.gif file, is going to be a tough one. I understand what you are trying to create, and if the back.gif file could be utilized in the same folder I would say it can be done.
Unfortunately, different backdrops have to be in seperate folders, hence when your party access a new level. Hmmmm, I will look into this further.

The drowning for the party can be done with the use of teleporters and launchers combined. You will need a switch to active them which utilizes a "special" item.

So for example, I created a sewer level (underwater). To open the door of the sewer level, you needed a "special" item, in this case it's two cogs, to active the mechanism.
I made it so the first cog unlocks the door to the lower level, but the second cog opens an hidden alcove, which in turns reveals another item which enables you to breathe underwater.
By using the second cog, it has deactivated the "drowning" switch.

If you didn't use the second cog, and went into the sewers, the switch would have remained active and after crossing a certain point, the party would have been killed by a spell from a launcher via telepoter, that of course would have been hidden by the party. This in turn gives the impression, that your party has drowned.

By messing around with this combination, you might come up with something better than I have so far.

I'm more than happy to put a little something together so you can see the mechanics of it yourself. But bear in mind the graphics of which are very far from complete.

Feel free to ask your questios, I'm happy to share what I have learned so far.

Also, PNG can be used without editing the code, for both doors and monsters, I believe. (My PC has been out of commission for a while, and I can't remember this for sure - it might be worth checking on).

Crimson Ghost · Post by **Crimson Ghost** » Mon Jan 01, 2007 7:19 pm

I installed the class files and graphics last night, I loved the the doors that open inwards/outwards, I think they would work really well for a town level, also the modified teleport graphics looks cool, I was thinking of a space/void/interdimensional level - the back.gif could be painted up to look like a starfeild, the walls too, or maybe left blank, then using floor decorations to give the illusion of a floating walkway, anywhere that is void/space could have a hidden pit to add to the illusion, i think your modified teleport graphics would look pretty cool in that kind setting - look cool anyway

- I thought all of the changes were great, the library book lock was especially sweet. But when i went into the dungeon ive been making all my own custom deko had become invisable

what have i done wrong?, Ive changed everything back for the moment but I really want to use the changes/graphics - help!

I havent tried the launcher/party drowner thing yet, but I thought a lot about it last night, what you describe sounds pretty close to the way i was going to do it, so Im hopeful I can get it to work

I mentioned i was thinking about a town level, if my memory serves me correctly monsters that are set up as friendly cant be attacked or harmed how difficult do you think it would be to change the code to allow a monster to change from friendly to unfriendly depending on party actions ie. Attacking or stealing. If its possible then I can imagine a wealth of possibilitys for a town level

I would greatly apreciate it if you could send me a modified class file so that i can use png files for the teleports, I keep downloading java learner packs and the like, but can never get them to work - So any advice on what to download in that dept would also be welcome - Ill pm you my email address

Cheers

Kelly · Post by **Kelly** » Tue Jan 02, 2007 8:17 pm

I've sent you the modified class file for the teleporters, before I had a chance to read your post here. Sorry about that.

The custom deko, won't work in GIF format anymore. All custom deko has to be in PNG format. There is also some other graphics that work this way, please check the readme file which should explain most of the changes. If not I will contact Ian. He has helped make a more detailed explanation of this addon pack in pdf format.

The town level sounds really cool, and yes it is can be done. The actions of the monsters does not require any editing of the code, this can be done by switches.
For example, say that you have a "friendly" monster in a store. You can either take an item you aren't supposed to by placing it on an alcove. Set the switch to teleport the monster, and replace it with an more aggressive one. The same can be done if you were attacking it. Place a teleporter in front of the creature. Tell the teleporter to accept only spells and/or projectiles. This gives the effect of one is actually attacking the monster. Again the switch is the same. Just replace the monster with a more nasty one.
This can be set up in the editor, using the custom monsters.

As for the type of backdrop you wish to create, anything is possible. DMJ is more versatile than some people might think, and it only takes a little imagination. Who said DMJ had to be all walls and dungeons!

As for editing the code, I am sending you another email with the tool I use and the decompressed class files to have a rumage through.
The best way to learn is to print them out and study them. You will soon be able to see what is doing what and where to change the code to suit your needs.

Your ideas are interesting and I'm more than happy to offer any advice.
Good luck.

Crimson Ghost · Post by **Crimson Ghost** » Thu Jan 04, 2007 6:52 pm

Cheers for the files kelly

Im looking forward to changing my underwater teleporter graphics to png,
It will be much subtler, Im going to have to take careful note of your advice on the drowning switch because every attempt i make either doesnt work or is so lame as to be laughable.

I tried out the Starfield idea I think it looks pretty cool

and Im now thinking about what Monsters would look good in that kind of setting Things like the Materializer,and anything a bit odd and interdimensional/chuthulu. A friend suggested a sky level - A cloud castle - by using a blue sky background instead of the starfield, I tried this but wasnt totaly convinced with my effort I think the background would need to be just right also i cant decide if normal walls would be best or if cloud ones would look better?.

I havent worked much on the town idea but did have another good idea - i think - for allowing the party to enter buildings, obviously if the background shows a blue sky and cobbled street then building conventional rooms - like in a standard dungeon - wont cut it as when the party enter the building/room your still going to have blue sky and cobbled street, but If the doors are actually modified teleports made to look like doors then another level can be set up so that when party walks into the Door/teleport they are inside - With a more suitable back file.
I hope that makes sense.

I havent tried it yet but i cant see why it wouldnt work. One thing Im not sure of is how to give the illusion of roofs
on the buildings outside, obviously the could just be flat but it would be nice if you had the choice, I'll need to go and look at bards tale and the like and see what they did. I think with a fair degree of smoke and mirrors a viable town with - using the tech you describe for changing friendly to unfriendly - inhabitants, shops and a wide variety of other fun stuff could be made - yup! I think Dmjava is more versatile than folks might think.

thanks also for the java tool, Ive done a little bit of programming a long,
long,long time ago - some basic and some Cobol, which was like pulling teeth i seem to remeber - I cant claim to have been any good at it, but I think being able to look at the code will help me understand whats going on

Cheers once again

Crimson Ghost · Post by **Crimson Ghost** » Fri Jan 05, 2007 8:27 pm

As kelly points out and i found out I had forgotten that the teleport graphics flip so not really any good for town doors - hmmmm

Kelly · Post by **Kelly** » Sun Jan 07, 2007 4:59 pm

An idea for the town.

If one is willing to create a wallset, with a town-like texture, it can be accomplished. The backdrop can be made a cobbled effect, like CG says, and blend the "top" of the buildings into the "sky". That way it will give the illusion of the buildings reaching upwards.

The "doors" then can be implemeted with the normal door usage via the editor or by the means from my addon pack, with the door opening inwards.

If can also make the door an actual switch graphic, that requires a key for example, that then replaces with an "open" version. Then use a teleporter to "enter" the building.

This in turn can be a tavern, shop or blacksmith from which you can acquire items needed on your quest.

To prevent one from walking too "far" you can add deko like a wooded area, carts, barrels, signs and lampposts to add to atmosphere. You can also create townsfolk, which you can then use to interact with by using events, or just make them friendly so they just "move" around the town.

Hope this helps.

ian_scho · Post by **ian_scho** » Mon Jan 08, 2007 9:28 am

The http://www.findsounds.com/ is a great site, Kelly. I've been looking for something like this for a while now.

Feel free to email me your dungeon/graphics if you want another eye/brain to look at your stuff when you've nearly finished your work, Mr Ghost.

Keep hacking away guys.

Kelly · Post by **Kelly** » Mon Jan 08, 2007 8:14 pm

To further aid the creation of a "town" level, here's a piccie for you.
Bear in mind it was made very quickly, so don't expect anything fantastic.

If one uses a "roof" the tiles won't match up ingame. Needless to say, this looks very odd. Instead I've had to do something rather strange, but it seems the only way we're going to do it, as of yet.

Basically I've took the first 3 images ( upclose and 3 steps back) and nothing else. I've blanked the rest of the wall out, just leaving blank images for the filenames. This is now working a little like doors, pillars and such, we don't have an actual "wall" system anymore.

Using this "one block" I've placed this in the editor. Now as you "turn" around the block the facing image is all you will see, and the distance views as you step back.

This might seem a little basic as to what you might have wanted to do, but without doing a complete wallset ( and with a roof, I'm not sure how) - this seems to be the only way.

Like, I said it's a quick design, and obviously needs a door implemented into the graphics for it to open, but if you're willing to settle for the "one" view, I can work on it further.

Also extra deko can now be created to blend into the surroundings, to add a little "more" to the level. A few trees, carts, barrels and street lamps, will add a little atmosphere.

Edit:- Removed link.