Idle speculation and flights of fancy

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Sophia
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Idle speculation and flights of fancy

Post by Sophia »

Digging ever deeper through the CSBwin source code, more and more of the little mysteries of DM are being reduced to just formulas-- as they must be in the programming of a "clone"-- but the sad consequence is that what once seemed like a complex interaction of magical forces, party skills, and destiny turns out to just be a call to the random number generator.

Oh, well. If what is becomes faded, perhaps we can turn our attention to what might have been.

That said, what's your favorite rumor, half-truth, whispering, non-easter-egg, or just plain random bit of idle speculation from DM?

These probably would mostly be fond memories from back in the old days, before there was a DM Encyclopedia or much of an Internet to put it on, when everyone knew a guy who knew a guy who made Ful Bombs.

That'd be at the top of my list, of course: making Ful Bombs.
As an aside to this one, anything involving the Gor rune.

The first draft of the DM adventurer's handbook is full of little things like this, before the official FTL edition cleaned it up. It posits that swamp slimes were related to screamers-- which it called shriekers for some reason, worms can't be hit by spells because they fly over their heads (maybe misunderstanding what was happening when you fired spells on the wrong side...?), and that Tiggy was female. Oh wait, they got that one right, even though almost nobody else at the time did. ;)

One that comes to mind from my own experience was the thought that rock monsters took more damage when they were popping out from under their rock piles. This one actually stuck around for me, as materializers showed that the code did make such a distinction at times. Still, it was but idle speculation, in the end.

So, what do you all think?
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Post by beowuuf »

Oh, before I knew about generators, and the fact they were triggered, I knew that certain rooms and areas seemed to resawn monsters, and always wondered what complex timing method they adhered to - sometimes I'd slep and try to go back for food and it didnt' work, othertimesthere'd be a few enemies...

Funny about the worms...a bug in DMute meant that placed worms did have spells flying over their heads!
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Post by Trantor »

I spent hours and hours trying to find the "missing" Skeleton Key in Level 13. Every other level with a Skeleton lock had a Key for it on the same level, and the thought that this could be different for Level 13 never occurred to me. I asked a friend who played the game before I did, and though he wasn't sure, he thought he had found a Skeleton Key in every level from 8 to 13, so I was sure I must be missing something. Only when I took a look at DM with CSBuild did I abandon that hope.

Apart from that, I remember a supposed cheat code for the ST version of CSB. Supposedly you had to kill Mongor, pause the game at exactly the moment he died and then type in some cryptic message on the keyboard. The result would be Mongor dropping the Firestaff! I tried it a few times on my Amiga version, but of course, it didn't work - I wasn't sure whether to blame it on the Amiga version or a false rumour. Today I am wiser. :wink:

And of course, there is the legendary pit in the DDD you have to close to proceed on ROS. I have read numerous different solutions on how to close that pit, but I think I figured out myself I had to kill a skeleton with rocks and other stuff a level below (funnily, I think it works differently in RTC, and similar to one of the solutions I read in a magazine that didn't work back then on the Amiga).
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Post by Lunever »

Making FulBombs, yes.
"Lord Librasulus Smites Thee Down". And it still bugs me that I don't know what if anything at all "cheat mode on" does in RTC.
I wondered for years how defence and damage is calculated.
The Kids Dungeon - never knew it was accessible on Amiga too, so I never actually played it.
Walk away and sleep to have the rats respawn. Walking away of course just meant I came across the monster generator trigger.
Walking around in the dark to see if there might be anything visible only in the dark.
Skeleton Keys, yes, and that darn Ros pit. Wondering about who the Halk Gonzo guy was I found on the original CSB disk.

And most important: Throwing stones assuming it might lure monsters round the next corner. I'd still love if one day RTC or some other clone .would support that.
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Post by Adamo »

oh, I had a millions of speculations about the unknown values in ADGE monster editor; what does these numbers refers to? Rain` said he`s got no idea if it works at all, so I gave up. Probability of turning left/right instead of walking straight... etc etc.

Creating food in DM; now I`m sure I remembered that from other games (EOB) and though it was possible in CSB.
Making FUL bombs... even now I think I remember that I created them while playing Amiga version of CSB :shock:

Sophia wrote:
One that comes to mind from my own experience was the thought that rock monsters took more damage when they were popping out from under their rock piles.
?!? I was sure it is thrue!
worms can't be hit by spells because they fly over their heads
that would be logical when they`re in non-attaking stage
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Post by PadTheMad »

Adamo wrote:
Sophia wrote: One that comes to mind from my own experience was the thought that rock monsters took more damage when they were popping out from under their rock piles.
?!? I was sure it is thrue!
So did I! To this day I still freeze the rockpiles with a magical box when I'm playing on harder difficulties. Obviously I needn't bother now.

The Lord Liberasulus trick got me too. I tried for HOURS on end after reading it on a cheat disk. Despite all better judgement, you'll believe anything when you're 10.

Oh and is the Kid's Dungeon actuall playable on the Amiga? I never even heard anything about that until I read it on an ancient topic from the past today. Seems such a simple way to 'unlock' it too. I'm surprised the magazines coul have overlooked that one. Maybe they didn't and I just overlooked the magazines.
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Post by Gambit37 »

Pretty sure it's either a joke or was only possible on very early versions as it's definitely not in the dungeon data of any of the versions I've got.
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Post by linflas »

- Prepare to meet your doom : i thought worms didn't regenerate but they had some blowing "queen" ! until i found the screamer room.
- Couldn't understand how fireballs where shot at DM level 8, because sometimes they were never shot !
- Still at level 8, spent hours into the long corridor and finally couldn't understand why a wall opened ! same thing in CSB, the very long one which leads to Dragon Den.
- Laughing pit : a pit that opens and closes randomly and i must *freeze* it to pass ?!? :shock:
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Post by Gambit37 »

I think the "freeze" solution for the laughing pit wasn't really intended. A player at that time wouldn't have known about the mechanics driving it so shouldn't really have thought a freeze would help.
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Post by beowuuf »

Yeah, that's right, the fireballs I didn't realise what fired them, so why they stopped either!
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Post by Paul Stevens »

I think the "freeze" solution for the laughing pit wasn't really intended.
Oh, I disagree. As I recall there were even hints
that it might work. A couple of 'Freeze Life'
boxes were nearby for that very purpose. And
I just assumed that a pit that laughed had some
sort of life associated with it.

You are right that I was ignorant of the mechanics
but I was so entirely ignorant that it made
perfect sense for a box to freeze pits if that
is what the designer meant to do. A person slightly
familiar with the mechanics might find it more
puzzling than someone completely ignorant.
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Post by Gambit37 »

Now you mention it, I forgot about the freeze lifes near by!
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Post by Tom Hatfield »

Ful bombs, rock piles, gor rune, purple worms . . . these plagued my mind as well. I was even more disappointed with DM2 because you still couldn't make ful bombs, and the gor rune still didn't do anything! These kinds of oversights feel like design flaws to me. Well, at least they let you buy ful bombs the second time around, but I never did.

I have not played through DM since joining this forum how many odd years ago, yet I'm constantly impressed by the shear amount of . . . stuff the game has, especially CSB (which I refuse to play until I go insane) and Conflux (when I find the time). Sometimes I have more fun piecing the stories together in my mind than actually playing them. It feels even more legendary that way.
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Post by Lunever »

Tom: Nono, you are just confused about the order of things - first you play CSB, then you go insane, not the other way round.

At least, if you play CSB you do have spells using the Gor rune :-)
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Post by Trantor »

Lunever wrote:At least, if you play CSB you do have spells using the Gor rune :-)
Only in the Amiga version, not in the ST original.

And Tom, I suggest playing CSB before Conflux, as Conflux is to CSB what CSB is to DM difficulty-wise.
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Post by beowuuf »

In some ways not in others!
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Post by Parallax »

I would suggest the exact opposite. I never could stand CSB but I love Conflux. My main beef with CSB is how it teleports you all over the place, sometimes silently, so that you can't really map it or make sense of it until you've explored most of it.

Plus Conflux is a lot easier. :P

Back on topic, I think I believed the usual myths about DM. Maybe some were of my own making.

I believed that fireballs healed the demons in DM, and that the diamond edge did more damage to golems than any other weapon (I still don't know whether that second one is true or not.)

I was also a believer in the myth that striking rock piles while they attack is somehow more efficient than at other times.

I read in a magazine that the game would crash if one was to get Chaos stuck under a closing door, but I never got around to testing it. After all these years, I still wonder whether it was true, and for what version.

I had a map of DM in which parts of the last level (I think) where hashed out, as if the mapmaker had known there was some empty space there but never managed to reach that area. I tried for hours to find a way in. To this day, I still use the window spell when mapping custom dungeons if the magic map is not available, to try and get advnace info. I'm sad. :(
Last edited by Parallax on Mon Jan 29, 2007 9:16 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by Trantor »

Conflux easier?? I can play through CSB without dying, but don't live more than 3 consecutive minutes in Conflux, despite playing version II.j to all three endings and being a beta tester for several incarnations of version III...
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Post by Parallax »

I don't consider frequency of death to be a useful indicator of dungeon difficulty. Conflux is 'local', in the sense that, for the most part, the problems can be isolated, deconstructed and, finally, solved. In CSB, the entire dungeon is like one gigantic puzzle. Do something somewhere and you may impact another, seemingly completely unrelated, part of the dungeon.

Or maybe that's just a myth I believe about CSB and that has no bearing on reality. Anyways, Conflux just makes more sense to me, if a council located under an underground city overrun by spiders under a crypt under a mine under some sewers under a temple under a cellar under some guild halls really needs to make any sense. :D
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Post by Trantor »

I don't think the "one gigantic puzzle" part is true for CSB Parallax, the puzzles can still be isolated just like you described for Conflux. You are right that a lot of parts interact and influence each other, but this mostly applies only to optional stuff. What you really have to do in CSB is actually very basic. In Conflux, the whole thing is so gigantic that I often lose track of where to go to reach a certain point, or have trouble remembering all the places where I can use a new key item I might have found.
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Post by Sophia »

Parallax wrote: I believed that fireballs healed the demons in DM, and that the diamond edge did more damage to golems than any other weapon (I still don't know whether that second one is true or not.)
No, but fireballs will heal Black Flames. :)

As for the diamond edge, it knocks 25% off the monster's armor. As golems don't have terribly high base hp, but very high armor, it makes sense that something that helps to mitigate this advantage would be effective.
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Post by beowuuf »

Also, CSB pits you against normal monsters but has tough puzzles and as said is quite tricky to work out, whereas although originally conflux pits you against monsters that are relatively much harder due to your low stats, once you beat that initial problem there is alogical progression to how you can advance and there are more beatable puzzles
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Post by Gambit37 »

The following experience doesn't quite tie in with the subject, but is kinda related. A few years ago, I was buying up loads of rare version of Dungeon Master for the DM Codex research. I got quite into it and one night had a dream about a hand-held version of the game. It was really, really cool -- it played on some unknown mobile device and was combination of the original game and bits and pieces from Nexus, EOB and Captive. It looked awesome, all the creatures had been redrawn and characters actually spoke to each other. The final battle with Chaos was much more climactic and I even remember the new artwork on the box and the new intro animation that had you clambering down a gully and into a cave that led to the entrance of the dungeon. It was done in 256 colours at 320x240 and could use either a d-pad/buttons or a stylus for controls.

It was such a vivid dream that when I woke up and discovered I was dreaming, I was so disappointed I tried to go back to sleep to see more! :?
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Post by Trantor »

I always said it - Dungeon Master eats your brain. Sounds like a really cool version Gambit. So, who on this board volunteers to code it? :wink:
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Post by Gambit37 »

Dungeon Master ate my brain a long, long time ago. All that's left is screamer juice.
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Post by Suule »

Gambit37 wrote:The following experience doesn't quite tie in with the subject, but is kinda related. A few years ago, I was buying up loads of rare version of Dungeon Master for the DM Codex research. I got quite into it and one night had a dream about a hand-held version of the game. It was really, really cool -- it played on some unknown mobile device and was combination of the original game and bits and pieces from Nexus, EOB and Captive. It looked awesome, all the creatures had been redrawn and characters actually spoke to each other. The final battle with Chaos was much more climactic and I even remember the new artwork on the box and the new intro animation that had you clambering down a gully and into a cave that led to the entrance of the dungeon. It was done in 256 colours at 320x240 and could use either a d-pad/buttons or a stylus for controls.

It was such a vivid dream that when I woke up and discovered I was dreaming, I was so disappointed I tried to go back to sleep to see more!
Trantor wrote:I always said it - Dungeon Master eats your brain. Sounds like a really cool version Gambit. So, who on this board volunteers to code it?
I guess you will have to dream, until I get my hands on DS DevKit. I'm slowly thinking of migrating to handheld homebrew completly as ATM it offers me better options as "one man orchestra" than PC. Still I'll stick to finish the PC projects I've started - DM2.5, Mog.Net and AdventureEngine (all using the same SDL graphics engine. In short: The engine will be very similar to SNES way of displaying stuff (Layers + Tiles) with few exceptions ).
Last edited by Suule on Fri Feb 02, 2007 3:32 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by Gambit37 »

Er, I think you posted in the wrong thread?
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Post by Suule »

I just cut down the posts. Sorry about that.
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Post by Gambit37 »

No problem, it just didn't seem to tie in with the rest of the thread! :)
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Post by beowuuf »

Something not tying up with the rest of the thread? Here? In DM.com? This cannot be tolerated!

As the resident Lord of Order I shall use my full powers to move this ontopic, poste haste!

So, who remembers hating mophus and wondering what powers his grin had? :D
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