DM game balance

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Joramun
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DM game balance

Post by Joramun »

Hi all,

I'm raising this topic because I'm currently making some stuff for DSB (that I will probably test in the original DM dungeon in the first place)

DM is quite a good game, but as often stated, it has some problems, mainly in game balance.

Here are the issues I see :
:arrow: 1/ Flask & Potions :
The jump from 0 to 1 flask in DM is a technological LEAP : it changes the game from very difficult (or even impossible once the characters are all crippled)
to quite simple in most case (except a very long and without-possible-retreat battle, that is)
:arrow: 1' /Also, priest spells are extremely powerful.
They create a positive loop of improvement that quickly make your party unbeatable :
full stat boost + (shield) + total healing (poison,wounds,stamina&health) and even more ridiculous in DM2 with the :shock: Mana potion.
:arrow: 2/ Fast improving subskills vs virtually useless subskills (climbing, coin toss skill)
:arrow: 3/ Fighter vs Ninja, mainly because of :
- total absence of powerful ninja weapons (well, of ninja weapons in general)
- high armor and health creatures that make hand to hand or dagger combat tedious, to say the least.
:arrow: 4/ Food & Water low constraints even when reaching low values (at least in original DM)

Possible solutions :
:arrow: 1/ Add ingredients for potion making, or change requirement from empty flask to a water flask
:arrow: 1'/ Same as before, change poison healing and wound healing solution from curing potion to one-time usable objects, like a vomitive potion and a balm, decrease the power of stamina potion
:arrow: 2/ Redistribute attack methods to be spread evenly on all skills, with broader categories than "climbing" or "coin tossing" :D
:arrow: 3/ Add ninja weapons, further improve the advantages of ninja mastery (quick reload)
:arrow: 4/ Add more sever problems to starving characters, make some food with disavantages : poisonous, stamina decreasing, whatever...

If you have comments, other issues or other solutions to point, please do !
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plenty
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Post by plenty »

Um... about priest boost and positive loop you mantioned... Did you ever tried to go trough the game without any spoilers or spell list? Before you will learn all boosting spells, you are playing mostlly using ninja skills (trowing objects). When you finally get some usefull spells, you are allready quite far in the dungeon, having spellcaster skills totally untrained.

For the first, or secund time you play this game is verry hard, and i guess that was the idea. Later u concentrate on secrets and subquests, so IMO its even better when generall difficutlly level falls.

Oh, one more thing. Food is hard to get if you don't know the location of monster generators acuratlly...
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Post by Tom Hatfield »

I think having potion ingredients would (a) make more sense, and (b) be extremely cool. It never sat well with me that priests can conjure a potion from thin air without anything as a base . . . thought, admittedly, it doesn't make any less sense than conjuring lightning or fire from thin air. Actually, one could take that a step farther and require that ALL spells require material components. It would make inventory management and resource gathering more interesting. I wouldn't do that for an original DM dungeon because it would take away the spirit of the game, but it could be very successful in a completely new campaign.
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Joramun
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Post by Joramun »

I posted it here because DM sets the standards of the gameplay.

In fact, once tested, i intend to put those features in a completely new dungeon of my making.
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Post by beowuuf »

In an aborted CSBwin dungoen, I had a mortar and pestle set up - the idea being you mixed incredients up to ape certain potions or create new potions - the spells giving you lower pwoer versions, the ingredient potions giving you much more powerful or long lived versions

Note to 4. - I hate being punished for being a cautious player, or an exploratory player. Sure, resource limits and severe penalties mean trainers don't have such an easy time, but then again trainers want an easy game so will just not play a dungeon that punishes them, not play through it I guess.

For example, DM Java annoyed me with it's severe punishemnt for low (not zero) stamia - low level characters were useless when you ran below a certain threashold and prone to die soon after

Just a thought - DM at least made sure that the resource management was balanced well enough. More severe penalties are annoying - just stretch the resources I think is a better idea to balance this.
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Post by Lunever »

0) I agree with Joramund that a couple of things are not balanced perfectly. I also agree with Beo that to severe counter-measures will tip the balance the other direction.

1) Potions & priest loop - issues intertwined with each other:

You have 2 things severely adding to yout priest XP and such to your priest levels:

- Before any situation where you intend to solve by fighters more than by wizards, you deplete all your mana in shield spells.

- Once your priests are somewhat capable, every time your 4 main stats drop below 230 you pause and brew Ku/Ros/Dain/Neta potions (which after some dozen times becomes an annoying procedure, so for the sake of playability I'm glad for the DM2 aura spells). BTW: What difference is there in respect to Mana potions form DM1 vs the ones from DM2?

You have 2 things inhibiting your priest advancement:

- Very often you cast priest spells not during, but before or after combat. That means you won't get the higher XP gain that occurs when doing something within a couple of seconds after being hit.

- And of course the standard exponential growing XP threshholds required for next level.

Solutions: Well, don't overreact here, since you don't want to prevent priests from advancing all in all. Limiting potion abuse however would be a good idea, killing two birds with a stone: It would take a large chunk out of the positive priest loop cake, imho exactly as much as would be sensible, and it would reenable the stats, which are virtually irrelevant in a party with decently trained priests. I suggest for one requiring water flasks. So you can stockpile potions when finding a resting place with water, but they will be a ressource not freely available all the time. Beyond that ingredients might be added (it could be necessary to hold 1 specific ingredient in the left hand in order for potions brewing to be successful). There could be 1 ingredient per spell that could believably be anywhere from a forest to a dungeon, I'd suggest different sorts of mushroom (you could use one of the many books about magic mushroom for inspiration :-) ). There could be special mushroom that are suitable for more than 1 spell, and super-mushroom that will allow for any spell.

To not make inventory management totally get messed up by ingredients, in such a game there should be enough bags available that can hold the components, it might be even better to inlcude an additional stacking mechanism in the engine that will allow Baldur's-Gate-like stacking (even then such mushroom stacks should be compatible to being contained in a DM2-like bag).

4) Food & water limits:

Like beo I'm rather an explore-all player, so severe limits on that would kill the game for me. I found original DM absolutely ok, if you ran out of food your stamina would go down quickly, but you can still uphold yourself with stamina-potions. I don't like the RTC method, where shortly after running out of food/water the stamina goes down so fast that you cannot even proceed to some ressources by taking a step and drinking a bunch of stamina-potions, but instead you will die before even able to do the next step.

If you'd actually make water flasks / ingredients necessary for potions, I think you would kill a third bird with your single stone here, since you could not subsist the party indefeinitely anymore.

2 & 3) Ninja class and subskills:

It is well known that in original DM you did use missiles as a beginning player, but then you found out that the damage inflicted that way compared to the pain in the ass coming from recollecting missiles is just plain ineffective compared to meleeing or fireballing opponents. Next you found out the tossing large stones unto doors will level you up faster than any real ninja combat and did so just to add a little to your stats to be a good fighter.
RTC already alleviated that somewhat by increasing the damage and XP gained from actual missile combat. Still the ninja is almost just a fighter-subskill.

Solutions:

- Have the unarmed option ALWAYS avalable alongside weapon options (always have tiny fist/boot/mouth icons right beside the weapon options).

- Include a couple of powerful ninja weapons in the game. The DM1 instructions read as if this was supposed to be, but then somehow was neglected. Of course the ninja weapons should not be just fighter weapon copies bearing a different name and class. They should be ninja-like in style (classical katana, nunchaku, maybe even a shoge with reach), and they also should be ninja-like in game terms (the close relation between outlook an in-game mechanisms is one of the advantatges of DM). The diamond edge / blue steele with it's armour bypassing is one such waepon. There could be others that increase things like flanking effect (see suggestion below). I would give weapons like the diamond edge / blue steele a stronger ninja XP component, not only fighter ones, even if you are not stabbing but cleaving.

I would include a new mechnism in the engine, specifically for the ninja: Flanking. Attack success and damage increase for attacking a monster from the side, increase more when attacking from behind, and much more if the monster has never spotted the party in the first place, like when it needs to see (and does not have a worm's tremoursense), but you are moving in darkness and approaching from behind, or simply when you are invisible.

Indeed overspecific subskills like climbing or cointossing are just inhibiting the entire class they belong to, i.e. the ninja. I would broaden them in some way. For example I would include a "steal" action in the game that allows you to transfer an item from the creature's possession into your action hand (there would need to be a list of exceptions, like screamer slices and drumsticks being unstealable, maybe by some flag), and make "cointossing" and "steal" be part of a subskill "ledgerdemain" (maybe shops could be designed that can be stolen from, taverns with gambling dialogues etc..). That would make it a ninja subskill though, not a priestly one.

Instead of "climbing" (which you just don't do often in the game) I would broaden it to "skirmishing" and have XP added to it each time you successfully use movement to your adnvantage, not only when climbing or falling, but also when you flank a monster (since that means that yuu have successfull moved past its primary defenses), and as a sidenote when you kill monsters by falling unto them. Discovering illusionary walls should also add to the ninja XP.
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Post by Joramun »

I didn't know of that XP gain boost when hit... are you sure it's not a feature of RTC only ?
1/ Yes, water and ingredients pretty much cut the loop.
I'm not a hardcore player, so in most cases I avoid using skill-boosting potions and shields, and rely mostly on a fighting/recovery cycle, which is possible only because monsters don't regenerate.
But I figure that if I'm doing a custom dungeon, I'll try to avoid "legal cheating" by removing skill boosting or making it a very hard process.
Adding bags, capable of holding the same items as the pouch, seems a good idea.
2/ The coin tossing ability is actually a priest skill
3/ Ninja :
- I would also add new hand-to-hand attack methods for high level ninja : after all a master ninja should be rewarded with something more than just "punch" and "hit"...
4/ Basically, in Original DM, running out of food or water has no consequence, because even if your stamina drops to low values, sleeping to regain mana will allow you to boost your stamina using potions...
Of course I don't think making the player totally unable to move once he is starving is the good solution.
I would favor a few other solutions :
- health, stamina AND mana regeneration would STOP or be very low once starving, including during SLEEP.
- a long period of starvation/lack of water would cause increasing problems, at a rate that lets the player hunt for some time but also gets life threatening after a longer time : - poisoning, - altered abilities (movement, attack rate, spell power), - altered vision

You can say it's unbalanced, but it also depends highly on the dungeons design... while in the current situation, any dungeon based on DM/CSB rules IS NOT life threatening concerning food/water supply, as long as your character has a flask and the apprentice priest level (to make decent stamina potions).
I can testify that, because one of the first time I won DM, I was trapped in the lower levels, with no more food or fountain, and trying to kill Chaos through conventional means (weapons and spell) my characters were at zero in water and food for a long time when I figured out I had to fluxcage the whole room before fusing Chaos...
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Post by beowuuf »

XP gain doubles in the presence of monsters, not when hit - so priest spells out of combat don't benefit, but of course renewing shield spells and casting health potions do
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Post by Lunever »

XP doubling for I think about 4 seconds after being attacked IS an original FTL feature.

I too trapped myself in DM1 once upon a time by greedily taking the powergem once I discovered how to do that. If I had not been able to create an endless supply of stamina potions I would have had a hard time, so cutting that by requiring water flasks for potions instead of empty ones would do the job fully imho.
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Post by zoom »

1. then it is also a technological leap to have
a starting character with an axe in inventory.
Wuuf has a potion in inventory at the start.
also , there is warcry "abuse" in front of creatures .trains no subskills, afaik,but who cares if you get levels(mana/priest and fighter)
2. I guess in the beginning you are not that
resourceful to actually benefit that much
from priest spells. Distinguish start of game vs
mid game vs endgame..
3. at the beginning ninja is ridiculously powerful.punch is fast
look at the start of a csbspeedrun. weapons pale in comparison to punch, take too much time.
in the end ninja is almost worthless,well, you have
stat increase and diamond edge but...
4. think of water and food as a side part of the
game. It should not be overly centered to having to eat and drink.
again, as a custom dungeon designer you can make some dungeonlevels scarcer and others abundant. Plus not knowing where you are and where you came from (csb anyone ) makes it really hard to get food and water

let food spoil? i.e. decrease the food value over time?

all in all there is in every game room for exploits.
so in dm as well. but why not balance? :)
also lunever has cool ideas for sneaking skill(ninpo invisibility feature) and flanking...
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