First steps with women

[Gambit37]

No, this isn't spam! Beo, hands off the ban button!

I'm 35 years old and have dated a lot of different women, some very briefly and with some I've had what you might call a serious relationship.

After all that experience, it shouldn't be so hard to ask a woman out. But I find myself in turmoil once again.

I've done online dating again for the last three months. Met some lovely women and had some nice dates and have possibly even got a couple of friends out of it. But no romance. I finished it just recently.

On Saturday I went out socially for the first time in a while and totally unexpectedly met the most beautiful girl in the whole wide world.

I have her number but haven't called her yet as I have no idea how she will react. I really want to, but the bigger part of me that fears the rejection doesn't want to risk any pain, so it's winning and making me think 'why bother?'.

Additionally, she is very young and part of me feels I am simply too old and should leave well alone. But I felt a bit of chemistry there. Or did I? Was she flirting with me or just being friendly? Hard to tell. I'm out of touch with women and their peculiar ways.

I know all the reasoning behind both answers to this question, but I'm going to ask it anyway: should I ask her out?

If you need any extra information: she's 24, German, very smart, in England for a year and absolutely the most beautiful girl I think I've ever met.

[Joramun]

Your age is actually an edge.
If you felt it was flirt, then it was flirt !
Any extra information is superfluous.
Don't ask yourself if she's beautiful or clever.
She probably has her own set of problems and psychological complex.
Just call her for some casual but interesting activity (go to a Café/Museum/Walk/Drink --what you think she'll like, what you'll be at ease in, something social & casual ! ), she won't rebuff you if it's not an explicit "romance proposal".
Don't kiss her ass or buy her anything (not even a glass), she's not a princess.

My advice would be not to be unaturally nice or needy.
If you just give yourself on a silver plate, she'll rebuff you.
The overall idea is to feel on equal terms with her.
If there's a particular social event you remember, where you had good time/discussion and felt more charismatic, try to remember this state and elicit it a few times a day before going out.

And please, call her fast ! Saturday to today is a perfect delay !

[Sophia]

First of all, get all that "most beautiful girl" stuff out of your head. It'll just mess with you. Joramund has it right-- she probably has her own problems. Of course, don't dwell on those, either. Just think of it as wanting to spend some time with another person, and you'll do fine. Pick some activity that sounds like fun and go for it.

As for being flirty, who knows. I'd say most people are always a bit more flirty away from home-- nothing unsavory to get back to anyone when you're a million miles (figuratively) away. That shouldn't make you unnecessarily cautious, mind you. It's just something I thought of.

On the age issue, I don't think it's a problem. Women seem to generally be somewhat more tolerant of dating older men, especially since some men in their 20s can be very immature. For whatever one woman's opinion is worth, it wouldn't bother me.

[Paul Stevens]

If you would like to go somewhere with her
then tell her so. Sooner or later you will
find out whether she likes to be with you.
It is all very simple.

(Wish I knew this 50 years ago! Like you,
I got worked out of shape about such
things. Oh, well. Everything came out OK
anyway. But it was needlessly painful.)

[beowuuf]

It's true, just call her and ask her if she'd like to go out on Saturday. If she asks if it's a date, say 'maybe' and then it's up to her if she says she doens't want to or not, then you can still extend the offer as a friend - and, of cours,e if the pressure's off from your end she might re-consider if it was adate or not at the end.

And otherwise, if you do go out without saying it's a date, then it would be up to her to say what she considered, or to ask - play it by ear.

If she was flirty and friendly and you felt chemestry and have her number, then it's at least an indication she'd like to see you again, and I'm sure she'l steer you right if she doens't want romantic attention soon enough without shooting you down - and it would more be about you just not being right for her, not about being rejected as someone terrible.

And yeah, don't worry about the age thing at all - it's more about attitude, if she's young in her lifestyle and what she wants from life, that might be bad if the relationship goes anyewhere, if not then there's nothign to worry about.

[cowsmanaut]

here's the deal as I see it. "nothing ventured nothing gained" Everything went well the last meeting with her because you didn't expect anything. Feel free to ask her out again and don't expect anything.

The very worst that could happen is that she says no. in which case you may not see her again, if you don't call her, you're pretty sure not to see her again.. so.. in these cases where one is a 50% chance to positive or negative, and the other option is pretty much 99% negative.. which option should you pick I wonder?

Again I stress.. no expectations. they make you work harder, second guess who you are trying to be, make you say things you wouldn't normally say. Ultimately there is one thing you want, and that is for her to like you for who you are.. just be you, be relaxed, feel free to flirt in jest and see where things go.

as for age.. let me just say that I have my own limits and everyone has what they feel comfortable with.. 10 years is my maximum. though I know friends who are more of an age gap than that and perfectly happy. It's more often than not a woman will go for an older man simply because they've had time to catch up to the womans mental maturity.

anyway.. that's all I have to say on the matter.. it really is not nearly as big a deal as we make it out to be.. at some point we got so caught up on the idea of failure that we stop taking chances. It's a sure fire way of staying alone

[Gambit37]

Wise words from all of you and I would have expected nothing less. I do feel a little silly even bringing this up as I should be well able to handle this by now. Anyway...

@Sophia: Maybe I'm just a sucker for a pretty face... but seriously, I was attracted to her for more than her looks; I'm not quite that shallow! We had quite a longchat about German national identity and the legacy of WW2 and how Germany is perceived by the rest of the world.

@Cows: "at some point we got so caught up on the idea of failure that we stop taking chances. It's a sure fire way of staying alone". I took a load of chances over the last few months but to no avail It made me a bit cynical. But you're right, I should just give it a shot.

[Gambit37]

I called her and got voicemail. Left a message. Watch this space.

[beowuuf]

Good luck! We're all counting on you

[Tom Hatfield]

Wise words from all of you and I would have expected nothing less. I do feel a little silly even bringing this up as I should be well able to handle this by now. Anyway...

It's called support, and everyone needs it, no matter how old we get.

Gambit, between this and your Changing Man thread, I feel like you and I have roughly parallel lives on opposite sides of the world. My advice would have been: she gave you her number, what the hell did you think she wanted you to do with it??? So, kudos. The waiting game is always the worst part, isn't it? I've made a huge fool of myself in the not-so-distant past for not waiting as a gentleman should. Don't make my mistakes.

There's a party tonight and I've been wondering if I shouldn't ask out a friend I used to crush over. We've known each other for several years, and she's very dear to me — her brother is one of my very best friends, such that he's been pushing me for the last couple years to be more outgoing — but she's not like a sister to me, and I could definitely see myself being happy with her. No idea how she feels, but tonight would not be such a bad night to find out, for better or worse.

I've found that solid rejection is bad for about five minutes, and then we rationalize it. When you draw something out, you start having expectations, and it gets much worse. It's none of our business, but what message did you leave, out of curiosity? She has your number now, I hope.

[beowuuf]

Good luck to you too then Tom!

[Sophia]

The waiting game is always the worst part, isn't it? I've made a huge fool of myself in the not-so-distant past for not waiting as a gentleman should.

I've actually never understood all the psychological games people play regarding this stuff. If I want him to call, then it doesn't really matter when, provided there's not 25 messages on my machine when I get home.

To me, it's less about time-- the main thing is that he wait until he actually has something to say. Calling but having nothing to say-- now that's awkward.

[PadTheMad]

There's not much that I think is worth saying that everyone above has said already. Wise words from everybody.

And as for that waiting game balls, I think Sophia hit the nail on the head there. If you like someone, you do and if you don't, you don't - simple as. Screw all this will they / won't they rubbish. Just make sure you've got everything straight in your own head first before going and doing anything major. That's my opinion on women!

I don't necessarily like failure as such, I don't think anyone does, but it's good (and maybe even necessary) to fail sometimes as it builds up our character for when things really matter.

[cowsmanaut]

I make an ass of myself daily.. hasn't killed me yet. As for talking to women.. just talk.. see what happens.. if she doesn't want to date you, move on.. it's not the end of the world. even if she does want to date you, who's to know if she'll turn out to be the woman of your dreams.. not every women who would be willing to say yes to you will be.. good looks or not.

In this case here Gambit, she gave you her number. Chances are she wanted you to call.. unless you stalked her to her flat and jotted down the address.. which I doubt..

once again.. no expectations.. it's very important to not have any..

[ian_scho]

once again.. no expectations.. it's very important to not have any..

My biggest mistake of all. Repeated many times over.
Now my mistake is taking my beautiful wife for granted. I feel very fortunate.

Good luck!

[Gambit37]

My advice would have been: she gave you her number, what the hell did you think she wanted you to do with it???

I said "Do you have a UK mobile?" as she's only been here a few weeks. She said yes and I said "What's your number?". She told me, i put it in my phone, then called her and her's rung so she has my number too. (You have to do this to make sure it's not the Flirt Divert number... Anyway, I think maybe she felt obliged and put on the spot...

There's a party tonight and I've been wondering if I shouldn't ask out a friend I used to crush over.

Just do it (tm)!

It's none of our business, but what message did you leave, out of curiosity?

It was a bit rubbish actually. I'd psyched myself up to talk to her so when I got the voicemail I wasn't prepared. I just said "Hi, it's matt, we met on Saturday. Just called to say hi and catch up. If you get a minute, give me a call." Hardly a confident message!

I've actually never understood all the psychological games people play regarding this stuff.

I agree and I usually don't wait this long to call someone I'm interested in. I think I just was putting off the rejection for as long as possible...

once again.. no expectations.. it's very important to not have any..

Yeah, I know. Sometimes it's difficult not to get one's hopes up though... It's been a very long time since I've had anything remotely resembling a worthwhile relationship. I like this girl. The two together have invaded my head somewhat.

Anyway... Still no response. If I don't hear from her by the weekend, I guess it's a no-no.

[Tom Hatfield]

I didn't mean waiting to call; I meant waiting for a response after you call.

[Gambit37]

Ah, right! Well, I'm not gonna go chasing cos that just looks needy. I'll give it until the weekend, if no response I think I shall go and become a monk.

[Zyx]

There's so many reasons for why she wouldn't call you even if she wants to. Maybe she's to shy? Maybe she's waiting for you to call, despite your message?

I would call her again and propose something to do for the week-end and check in real life (not in your imagination) if it's a yes or a no.

[Gambit37]

She's definitely not too shy...

I don't think calling again sends a very good message. Sure, it looks keen and there's nothing wrong with that, but from experience a lot of women think that 'too keen' = 'needy and patehtic'.

I could just not care, but unfortunately I'm not wired that way.

[Joramun]

Wait a few days, and if she hasn't called back, call her back, instead of becoming a monk.

It's not a question of being wired one way or another.
You NEED not to care about such things, because they are unimportant.
That's when you care about such things that you start acting weird needy and such, and girls immediatly detect that.
And I know what I'm talking about, because I did that a lot !
You need to fake self-confidence a bit to get some success, and those eventual success will build your true self-confidence.
So be a little bold, for god's sake! Don't tell her "I really need to see you", tell her :
"I'm doing that, I want you to come with me, and if you don't, you'll miss something/someone great"

If you finally decide to become a monk, I suggest to go in one of the ale-brewing abbeys. Preferably one in which monks are allowed to talk.
Also, remember that monks don't get laid that often

[Gambit37]

I'm not that bad that I'd say "I need to see you". Despite the impression I may have given in this thread, I can be confident with women -- but that's usually only with the ones I'm not interested in!

Yeah, I should have suggested something when I left the message. Darn it. Oh well.

Monks don't get laid often. True. But that wouldn't be any different from my current state. Anyway, I'm not just looking to get laid. If I just wanted that, it's easy to find.

[Gambit37]

Update:

I haven't thought about her anymore.

I'm seeing someone else!

[Joramun]

Great !

You see, that's when it's unexpected that it works

[Adamo]

Adamo`s instruction how to pick up the chicks (tested several times, not always worked; to be honest, never worked, but it`s still worth to try):

First, you try to start the conversation in the pub with unknown girl; 9 of 10 would say :"get lost!", but one would invite you to the table! Notice, that you don`t loose anything here: nor the money, nor the time (the "I don`t want to talk with you" conversation usually lasts no more than 1 minute)!

Right, you`re finally sitting with a girl trying to get her phone number. DON`T buy her drinks unless you get the number!! Otherwise she might drink 15 beers, get drunk for YOUR MONEY and finally say "hey, I`ve gotta go. See ya... another time"
In that case, except the money you spent on her, you also loose your valuable time wchich you could`ve spend for picking up other chicks!

Ok, suppose you`ve got the number.. So money from your wallet for buying her cheapest drinks last night wasn`t completely lost Next day call her from the number that she doesn`t know; then there is some chance that she`d answer unknown number (say ~50%) or call back to check who was it (~10%). If she would`ve seen your personal number on her phone, she might think "ooh, it`s that annoying XY I met yesterday trying to catch me up on the party .. I won`t answer THAT ". When she sees unknown number she might think "hmm, who might that be? maybe it`s that handsome Roberto from Barcelona? I`ll better answer the call!"

Right, suppose she called up the phone and realized it`s you.. what a dissapoint.. "that guy definitely wants to poke me!"
there`s 10% chance that she`d date with you. Right, bye- bye baby! But! you`ve got also 10 other chicks in your phone, don`t you remember? Probability says one of them must be that stupid to agree!

oh, and remember: use my tips at your own risk! I don`t take responsbilities for anything

[Parallax]

I only have one thing to add to this thread, and that is: call other women!

The more you fixate on one, the more desperate you seem and the worse your chances. The problem with the message you left is that there is no compelling reason for her to call back, so she probably won't, and if you call again you will look needy. In other words, you've been as far as you can with this line, it's time to move on.

On the prductive side, think about how you met her. Who do you know who knows her? What do you do with these people? When will you see them next? Try to work out a strategy to see her again with the same people. Are you going to a movie together soon? Suggest that their friend you just met was cool and you're OK if they want to invite her along. Friends are great for social validation in a "see, I have friends, and they're your friends too, so they can vouch for me, I'm not a creep" kind of way. So hang out with your friends, meet more people, keep yourself busy. The new girl is always OH SO great, but she's just a human like the rest of us.

[Tom Hatfield]

The number-one reason I don't approach women — and I believe this is completely legit — is because right now I don't have the resources to date, as it were. Granted, when I was with my last love, we spent very little money and enjoyed most of our time just being together, which is how I wish all women were . . . but we did spend some money, and I don't even have that right now. Plus my car is a bad way.

However, grace is getting what we don't deserve, and I'm of the mind that if one woman fell for me because of who I am, perhaps there will be another who might take the chance. So I'm trying to move myself into a situation where I have the resources to initiate at least one encounter, and then we'll see where it goes from there. It worked once!

As for "just human," yes, we're all human, but we're not all compatible. You don't want to throw away an opportunity under the assumption you'll meet someone else "just like her." I've met quite a few people who have been unique encounters in my life, some of whom I very much regret not knowing better. "There will be another" is never an excuse for cowardice. Someday, there won't be another.

Congrats on the newfound relationship! That was delightfully unexpected.

[ian_scho]

Please don't waste your 1000th post on a subject about how to chat up women, Adamo...

[Gambit37]

The problem with the message you left is that there is no compelling reason for her to call back

I know and I did say that earlier. Was a daft message and no mistake!

and if you call again you will look needy. In other words, you've been as far as you can with this line, it's time to move on.

Exactly. Waste of time. She was too young anyway.

On the prductive side, think about how you met her

I'm unlikely to meet her again through the people I know, it was a chance encounter.

Anyway, I think you missed my other post. I met someone else!

In fact, it's someone I went out with a few times a few weeks ago that I was unsure about. We went out for a drink again on Friday and I realised that actually she is very nice and worth getting to know. I think part of my previous concern wasn't so much about her, as me: I was very busy with moving house and getting my business going and just didn't think I had the energy or time to date anyone.

The number-one reason I don't approach women — and I believe this is completely legit — is because right now I don't have the resources to date, as it were.

I totally get that; that's always an issue too. And it has stopped me from following up asking out women in the past, especially when it's clear they earn a lot more than me.

Congrats on the newfound relationship! That was delightfully unexpected.

I wouldn't go that far yet. We've only been out five times -- four of them two weeks ago, and then just this weekend. Gonna take it easy.

The bottom line with the good looking girl I met last week is that at the end of the day it was purely physical attraction. I was lusting after her. We didn't have anything in common and she was clearly a young woman out for fun drinking, clubbing, etc. I've done all that and am tired of it and I'd never have been able to keep up with her anyway!

[Tom Hatfield]

I bumped into someone not long ago, couple months I guess, and in an act of inebriated courage I kissed her on the neck, and the next thing I know, she's interested in me. I wasn't really interested in her; we were dancing, and I got caught up in the moment. Naturally I didn't want to tell her I wasn't interested because I didn't want to hurt her, so I put it off, and we had this weird sort of thing going on where I would be very affectionate with her, and then I would get caught up in my grief and be suddenly distant.

Well, I finally got around to telling her I wasn't interested in anything serious. I've heard from her a couple times but haven't been able to see her since, due to unfortunate circumstances, and that has me feeling a bit bad because I never intended to cut ties with her, just wanted to take it slow and be friends, you know? Yes, lust is an everlasting issue, and among the most important tests of one's character is that we're able to recognize it. I'm still a little rough around the edges myself. Granted, I am wholly able to differentiate between lust and genuine affection, but often I'll let the former take over.

Only been out five times . . . I don't know what the custom is on the other side of the ocean, but five dates seems pretty steady to me. I guess it's what you make it. My last partner and I were together almost a month before we decided it was for real . . . and then it was abruptly over, but that's another story.