Joining forces to make custom graphics

Post by **Gambit37** » Wed Jun 25, 2008 7:48 pm

Parallax wrote:What's likely to take me the next 40 years (not ten, I said 2050) is all the custom graphics.

You, me and Linflas are all in the same boat. I'm sure others are too.

It would probably make more sense for us to pool our resources and work together on ONE project. But of course,we all want to do our OWN thing. And I only get limited time anyway, so I don't want to be held to someone else's schedule.

I wonder if we can somehow help each other without sacrificing our own projects?

zoom · Post by **zoom** » Wed Jun 25, 2008 8:25 pm

This is really awesome!
I would gladly contribute and stuff.

Post by **Gambit37** » Wed Jun 25, 2008 8:28 pm

Also, bear in mind, I work in higher resolution for RTC and I'm not interested in doing graphics for the old 320x200 resolution.

zoom · Post by **zoom** » Wed Jun 25, 2008 11:00 pm

Higher resolutions are fine!

more upto date and also better looking.
(you can always try to scale them down,
so why work low res- it has no use for
RTC or DSB or dmjava really.)

Post by **Sophia** » Wed Jun 25, 2008 11:27 pm

Well, the good thing about the lower resolutions is that it meshes better with the DM graphics that are there. If you don't want to redo everything, low res might be the way to go.

Of course, I think the issue of resolutions is just one example of the big problem: we all have different requirements, both based on individual design preferences and on what engine we're using. That makes this a bit challenging.

Post by **Gambit37** » Thu Jun 26, 2008 12:51 am

Indeed. I don't really know if we can share such an endeavour. Oh well, just a thought.

ian_scho · Post by **ian_scho** » Thu Jun 26, 2008 8:24 am

With projects such as DSB and RTC(?) it's possible to share ownership of the work via a free on-line hosting service. What you'd have to define are the roles in such a project.

1) Storyline / Plot - Not just writing a story but would get it down relating it to the dungeon level and defining the environment and encounters therein.
1a) Cartogropher - When there's more than two on a project it maybe even advisable to sketch the dungeon out using an online spreadsheet. Otherwise it might be more fun for each person to be assigned a level to create.
2) n Artists - Seems to be the most work here, for producing a truly original artefact, with modern graphics.
3) Dungeoneer - Detailed knowledge of the development engine required here. But we all want the wand of portrait-changing-door-opening-smoke-generating-boom-stick created and most of us don't know how to do that.

beowuuf · Post by **beowuuf** » Thu Jun 26, 2008 9:02 am

I think the idea was to create a pool of graphics somehow between dungeon designers, not create a team dungeon

The three people listed all have strong ideas for their own dungeons, and the effort of doing the whole lot of custom graphics alone seems to ensure those ideas are hard to realise

I guess the project would work as long as a compromise could be reached for common items and even monsters that would suit the various dungeon asthetics - perhaps even some parts of wallsets.

That would leave each individual designer to then concentrate on mechanics and unique graphics, as long as the unique graphics were not supposed to be one of the big selling points

Post by **Gambit37** » Thu Jun 26, 2008 1:01 pm

Yeah, this is only about helping each other create custom graphics, not building a shared dungeon/adventure -- unless of course everyone wanted to drop their own projects and help me with mine...

beowuuf · Post by **beowuuf** » Thu Jun 26, 2008 1:37 pm

No Forest of Doom? NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!

Post by **linflas** » Thu Jun 26, 2008 2:11 pm

hmm.. that remembers me an old thread that had been opened years ago, about a sharing website where designers could upload there graphics freely, add comment and categorize them. but cows and gambit discussed about my artwork instead !

i'm pretty sure that it can be easily done with some picasa account or similar. people that are involved would share the account/password by pm.

Post by **Gambit37** » Thu Jun 26, 2008 2:37 pm

I think everyone's misunderstanding. The difficulty isn't the sharing of files, that's easy.

The problem is that we all have dungeons we want to build that use custom graphics. New graphics take ages to make which delays the release of new dungeons.

I'm wondering if there is a way that custom graphics designers can PRIVATELY help each other, without taking away the uniqueness of each individual project.

Parallax · Post by **Parallax** » Thu Jun 26, 2008 5:13 pm

That would be great for you Gambit, and for Linflas, and Cows, and possibly others. My problem is that I would be a leech in this kind of arrangement, because I'm never going to produce something that rivals the quality of what you guys can do. I'm not a graphic artist, never will be, and I'm not delusional enough to convince myself that I could do it. And if you are going to put graphics from different sources into one dungeon, they all have to be on par in terms of quality. You can't put, say, Cows' flying armor next to some monster I would make that looks like a misshappen puppet with Down syndrome.

I can, and I love to, make new mechanics. Once thing I made was an automap for DSB, which displays only what you have explored of the dungeon. The walls/doors/etc... icons for it are scribbles and the background is a digital photograph of my kitchen table (you think I'm kidding. I'm not.) The item icon itself is the default DM scroll. It works great, but if you put it as is in a custom dungeon it will seriously kill the suspension of disbelief.

Post by **cowsmanaut** » Fri Jul 11, 2008 5:46 am

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v291/ ... oncept.jpg

not sure how long it will last, but I'll start a few monsters, Probably going to Zbrush them for basic 3D meshes.. this is the concept for the beholders. I'll likley do mummies next, than maybe a screamer.. then.. dunno..

Post by **Ameena** » Fri Jul 11, 2008 11:26 am

Woah, cool

.

Crash. · Post by **Crash.** » Fri Jul 11, 2008 11:43 am

Very nice work indeed.

I'm just talking out loud here, since I don't have the skill to create art like that, but if there are a few artists willing to work on monsters, perhaps the work could be divided up to reduce the burden.

While I'm sure it would be amazing for each dungeon to have a completely unique set of creatures and unique art, that seems overwhelming to an individual who may also be performing the game and sound design.

Are you folks thinking of creating a replacement set for all of the original DM/CSB/DM2 creatures, or a completely new set specific to each of your dungeon projects?

It would seem to me, reasonable to start with at least a subset of the original creatures and then build on that.

Maybe this is the wrong thing to suggest, but would it be possible to render graphics using models from other games such as NWN2?

Here's an example of one I found:

http://vnmedia.ign.com/nwvault.ign.com/ ... ullres.jpg

Beastly things!

Post by **Gambit37** » Fri Jul 11, 2008 12:57 pm

That beholder is cool, but it's not the Dungeon Master Wizard's Eye.

There now seems to be two issues:

(1) Dungeon creators want their own imagery that is unique to their dungeon. It's a big task and people could do with help on it I guess, but at the same time, the dungeon creator wants to keep it secret so that the player is surprised.

(2) Making high-res replacements for the monsters in the original games. I see this as completely separate to (1)

I reckon (2) needs it's own thread, that wasn't what this thread was supposed to be about. I'll sort that out later.

Crash. · Post by **Crash.** » Fri Jul 11, 2008 6:19 pm

Okay, just trying to understand what you are trying to achieve here. I hope that there is some way I can contribute.

As I've said before, I do hope to see some of the favorite DM monsters again.

Cheers!

Post by **cowsmanaut** » Fri Jul 11, 2008 6:34 pm

there is something to be said for updating the visuals more than just cleaning up the edges. You see, when we look back on movie monsters from the 50's 60's and even 70's ... we see a distinct lack of "scary"

I must say that wizard eyes are not in the slightest bit scary to me anymore. They had some kind of close up attack that I'm sure was physical since I heard my characters go "UHH" without hearing the sound of a magical attack.. so what did he do?? hit me with an eyeball??? no.. he needs a physical attack.. give him a mouth like most beholder images I've seen. It's obvious it's what it's based on.. and in the 70's is where they likley got their images from in some AD&D book. Along with old black and white movie monsters.. Mummy.. not scary.. Blue meanie... not scary.. Dragon.. awww he's so cuuuute!!

Crash. · Post by **Crash.** » Fri Jul 11, 2008 9:06 pm

Okay, I'll have to completely agree with you on these points. I don't think it is worth all of your time to touch-up the old 16 color graphics. I was curious if the plan was to re-draw/re-create all of them.

Clearly, that may not be worthwhile since some of the monsters aren't that distinctive or imaginative, but retaining one or two may help to add a sense that this is the same Dungeon Master game/universe, if that is what is intended.

I imagine the challenge here would be to create enough monsters to keep things varied and interesting. It looks like the original DM had about 24, which seems like a lot of work.

I personally think the DM Wizard Eye qualifies as creepy (as does almost anything with fewer than, or more than two eyes), but it definitely needs a large threatening mouth with big pointy teeth like yours or something similar. Hey, remember this one?

I do have to admit that I have enjoyed perusing the various monster manuals from D&D and do find some of the drawings to be well done, scary, and quite creative.

I would have to agree that the 30s-40s Universal Monster movies were not what I would consider scary, although Nosferatu may be the black and white exception.

On the other hand, "John Carpenter's The Thing", "Alien(s)", "The Fly", H.P. Lovecraft/Cthulhu mythos, etc... are pretty scary to me.

zoom · Post by **zoom** » Tue Jul 15, 2008 1:38 pm

Parallax · Post by **Parallax** » Tue Jul 15, 2008 2:31 pm

That's probably the best 1000th post you could have made!

Crash. · Post by **Crash.** » Tue Jul 15, 2008 9:52 pm

That would make a great t-shirt

zoom · Post by **zoom** » Sat Jul 19, 2008 1:41 pm

well, you can reveal the creature here:
http://img253.imageshack.us/img253/3963/b2ml4.jpg

zoom · Post by **zoom** » Sun Jul 20, 2008 1:31 pm

sorry Parallax and Crash. that I did not reply. Thanks for your posts nevertheless!
Well, can anyone tell me what is the conclusion then?
what now?
Is it simply not doable to cooperate because everyone wants
to keep the graphics secret for as long as the dungeon is not
released, when in effect all graphics would be known to all players and then probably get used anyway?
I do agree that releasing graphics beforehand will spoil the surprise
of new graphics by very much like 99%. But releasing graphics would help tremendously in the creation process of new dungeons.
Just imagine, we had a pool of 10000 graphics for dm like games.
would it then more spoil the fun or benefit the dungeoneer in the long run? What do we aim at?
I guess ultimately people do want high res imagery, there I got no doubt. And I guess, graphics are the one thing, but how the designer , for instance weighs the strengths and weaknesses of creatures in the custom dungeon will make the difference.
If you use EOB graphics they look familiar, but you fight different
monsters than in EOB.
well, just ranting on here, I hope you don't mind, but somehow
I think we could accomplish more here.
Any inclinations here to discuss this further?

Crash. · Post by **Crash.** » Sun Jul 20, 2008 5:29 pm

Clearly, it is not possible to share a graphics development workload and also keep everything completely secret. On the other hand, if a project never gets completed, no one will be surprised by it either.

I imagine that some sacrifice or compromise would have to be considered.

Some things I would do?

1. Build a pool of general purpose monsters/creatures/NPC models, that can be used in various projects. Individual projects would still have new and unique creatures and characters, but some could be drawn from the pool. Additionally, after a dungeon has been released, if the unique creatures could also be released, they could be added to and would enrich future projects. The pool would grow.

2. Agree upon/assemble a good general purpose wallset/dungeon graphics set. I don't know if the intention is to create all new wallsets for each project, but I would personally be happy if there was at least one comprehensive, high resolution, high color, dungeon graphics set for general dungeon use. This could be supplemented, ornamented, and otherwise adjusted suit the individual project.

So, maybe those of you that are actually artists can work something out. I hope that there is a way to reduce each of your workloads so that each of your projects can be realized.

Aside from busy work and perhaps creature ideas, I'm not sure what else I could contribute. I'm still trying to round out a set of original DM creature graphics with some kind of improvement.

Once I finish tinkering with the DM2 dungeon graphics set I'm working on for RTC, I may see if I can figure out how to assemble a complete dungeon graphics set from what Germanny and Cowsmanaut have created for DM Java. That's probably the extent of my capabilities.

zoom · Post by **zoom** » Sun Jul 20, 2008 11:19 pm

1 seems like the a good way to go in the future(general purpose)
here we would need some guidelines, probably entered into the
wiki, with resolution, formats and colour depth of each engine's
creature graphics. As well as things to note/ colour/restrictionson graphicformats or how to put the shadows correctly etc.

2wallsets are a bit tricky. There are 2 editors I think, basically you cannot really use one engine's wallset with another engine's seemlessly. There could as well prove some guidelines useful.

3highres imagery. dsb and Rtc can use these graphics.
This is a huge workload, so no one to blame if that will
fail since mixing old with new does not appeal to the majority!

Post by **Gambit37** » Mon Jul 21, 2008 12:00 am

Well, since seeing the Spore Creature Creator, I personally am not too concerned about this issue anymore!

Although the creatures generated are quite cartoony which isn't the look I'm going for, it wouldn't take too much work to make them more realistic and it's so much quicker than either hand drawing all the views or rigging your own 3D creatures.

I just need a new PC to use it -- my current one can't run it!

Post by **Ameena** » Mon Jul 21, 2008 12:43 am

Send me a sketch of it and I'll make it for you and send you pics

.

Crash. · Post by **Crash.** » Mon Jul 21, 2008 6:02 am

Gambit37 wrote:Well, since seeing the Spore Creature Creator, I personally am not too concerned about this issue anymore!

Although the creatures generated are quite cartoony which isn't the look I'm going for, it wouldn't take too much work to make them more realistic and it's so much quicker than either hand drawing all the views or rigging your own 3D creatures.

I agree, that the look of the creatures is a bit cartoony. Is there any way to make finer adjustments to the character models?

Has anyone made a test creature graphics set (front, side, back, attack) from a Spore creature?

Here's another idea, perhaps a group of you could band together and decide upon a set of graphics that could be common to all projects without compromising your visions. Items such as keys, clothing, armor, food, etc... represent a lot of work and might be okay if shared. A common interface design might also be one way to brand this collaboration, and reduce workload. Maybe the only way to resolve this question is for each contributor to state what element that they are not willing to share, or use shared graphics. Monsters seem to be a sticky one, but are there any other categories that each of you feels strongly about?

It seems to me that if each designer wants a completely distinct and unique look and feel for each dungeon, there would not be any way to join forces. In that case, you may have to try and gather a team of people willing to develop specifically for your project. One man game design is a whole lot of work. It's taken me weeks just to try and assemble a fairly complete set of DM2 graphics for general DM/CSB type dungeons. I can barely imagine the effort required to generate all graphics and sounds from scratch on my own.