Item support + Editor / dungeon building question

[zoom]

how many different items does DSB support?

There are increasing thoughts about finally using DSB.

but how would I start with building a dungeon?

downloading DSB test dungeon, because there are
a couple of files ?

learning lua and/or just copy, paste and read through docs?

I know you can build a map by having a paint program.
let;s say red pixel is for a closed door , black meaning wall.
But this should be explained again, please

So a step by step progression on what to do to build a dungeon
would be in order. what one needs, what one would like to read through (could be scaled in months roughly, no need to rush it)

Joramun did DM and CSB. How did he accomplish it?
would it be wise to open up each file of his work and read that?

sorry if this was asked before, but does not hurt, does it?

edit:
you alter monsters like items ? what is hardcoded?
Adamo showed me this editor, forgot it !
http://www.dungeon-master.com/forum/vie ... hp?t=27204
but editing defense of helmet not possible?

[Adamo]

I`m also curious about that. How to edit things? How to change monster`s AI? Do I have to lua?

PS. Can I change the DSB graphics somehow to make graphics look EXACTLY like original? (Right now it uses higher resolution as I see).

[Sophia]

how many different items does DSB support?

The short answer is "a lot."

but how would I start with building a dungeon?
downloading DSB test dungeon, because there are
a couple of files ?

The test dungeon comes with DSB. You could always poke around in it. I admit that DSB editing isn't as user-friendly as CSBwin or RTC...

I know you can build a map by having a paint program.
let;s say red pixel is for a closed door , black meaning wall.
But this should be explained again, please

It's based on palette index, not color. You can set the colors to whatever values you find easy to remember.

Essentially, DSB uses the dungeon's colorconvert table to figure out what to put in a given square, based on its palette index. For example, this line from the test dungeon:

Code: Select all

[4] = {0, "fountain_lion", SOUTH},

This means that anywhere there is a pixel of palette index 4, make that square a wall (0), and put a "fountain_lion" facing south.
Another example along the same lines:

Code: Select all

[128] = {1, "rounddrain", CENTER},

This means anywhere there is a pixel of palette index 128, make that square a floor (1), and put a "rounddrain" in the center.

If the first character of the object is a _, it will execute a function and pass the location as well as anything else specified in the table as parameters. For example

Code: Select all

[64] = {1, "_spawn_door", "door_black", false},

Anywhere it sees a pixel of palette index 64, it will make that square a floor (1), and then call spawn_door as follows:

Code: Select all

spawn_door(level, x, y, "door_black", false)

So a step by step progression on what to do to build a dungeon
would be in order. what one needs, what one would like to read through (could be scaled in months roughly, no need to rush it)

Hopefully something like this will be on the wiki eventually...

Joramun did DM and CSB. How did he accomplish it?
would it be wise to open up each file of his work and read that?

Joramun cheated a little, because he wrote a program to convert RTC .txt files to DSB dungeon.lua. It worked well enough for DM and CSB, though if there are a lot of custom items and whatnot in them, it won't work of course.

you alter monsters like items ? what is hardcoded?

Almost nothing is "hard"-coded, but just about everything is Lua-coded. This means that to alter the properties of monsters and items, you need to poke around in an objects.lua file. Take a look at base/objects.lua for the one that contains all DM and CSB items, or the test_dungeon's own smaller objects.lua to give some ideas how to modify objects in your own dungeon.

It might not be a bad idea to just copy the whole test_dungeon and start making changes to it, and see what you can come up with from there.

How to edit things? How to change monster`s AI? Do I have to lua?

Monster AI is rather complex, there's just no getting around that. It's all in base/monster_ai.lua, and it's not the sort of thing you'll be able to understand in a day.

Some of the more common monster functionality is defined as properties in the monster's objects.lua entry, or hooked in the less complex base/monster.lua, if that helps...

[Gambit37]

For example, this line from the test dungeon:

Code: Select all

[4] = {0, "fountain_lion", SOUTH},

This means that anywhere there is a pixel of palette index 4, make that square a wall (0), and put a "fountain_lion" facing south.

Actually, although not very user friendly, this is quite powerful. A very neat idea, assuming the dungeon designer remembers their colours...

Joramun cheated a little, because he wrote a program to convert RTC .txt files to DSB dungeon.lua.

I think that's a perfectly acceptable cheat...

[ian_scho]

Coming from pouring 100s of hours over an editor in DMJava I find DSB both a great joy and a source of fear. THERE IS SO MUCH MORE I CAN DO with DSB, yet the smallest changes from the 'norm' will take me longer to complete. I'm not talking about custom items, more about changing the actions of items and objects in the dungeon into something really different.
That's why this time around I've set upon modding the engine first, creating a dungeon later.

How to change monster`s AI?

Instead of reading monster_ai.LUA and making your own 3000 line code hell, why not just inject ideas into your monster's head by calling a function (dsb_ai), passing in a verb?

I have yet to make a dungeon layout with DSB!

[Joramun]

I actually began mapping DM with the palette system, but at some point I took a step back to look at the task, and it was cleary much easier and more useful to write a basic RTC txt file converter, especially since RTC dungeon definitions are mostly linear.

The big drawback is that anything that has a "complicated backstage definition" like WALLITEM_ACTION in RTC, can't be translated in any easy and straight forward manner in DSB.
It's like translating from Chinese to English : as long as it's just basic conversation it's ok, but if you enter Philosophy it gets impossible.

I'll release a couple of hacks I made for DSB
as examples on the wiki, ASAP (probably in september).

[zoom]

The short answer is "a lot."

So you cannot tell exactly? Not that it matters, but how about 16.3 billion?

I admit that DSB editing isn't as user-friendly as CSBwin or RTC...

"was noch nicht ist, kann ja noch werden! "
rough translation: what is not yet the case can ever become..

It's based on palette index, not color. You can set the colors to whatever values you find easy to remember.

There will be alist where you can look up the pallete indices, so
you don't need to remember, no?

Essentially, DSB uses the dungeon's colorconvert table to figure out what to put in a given square, based on its palette index.

ah, ok that's a start. The examples are easy enough to understand..is the CENTER attribute absolutely necessary when there is no other way to put the graphic, like round drains (always "centered") Is it bad if you omitt the ,CENTER?

Code: Select all

[64] = {1, "_spawn_door", "door_black", false},

Anywhere it sees a pixel of palette index 64, it will make that square a floor (1), and then call spawn_door as follows:

Code: Select all

spawn_door(level, x, y, "door_black", false)

The (level, x, y) coordinateswhere does the program get these from? I guess from the level map=color map??
(I have yet to look at the TEST dungeon, so probably no need to answer!!

It might not be a bad idea to just copy the whole test_dungeon and start making changes to it, and see what you can come up with from there.
(...)
Take a look at base/objects.lua for the one that contains all DM and CSB items, or the test_dungeon's own smaller objects.lua to give some ideas how to modify objects in your own dungeon.

good advice ^^
THanks for the reply!

Joramun cheated a little, because he wrote a program to convert RTC .txt files to DSB dungeon.lua. It worked well enough for DM and CSB, though if there are a lot of custom items and whatnot in them, it won't work of course.

(...) began mapping DM with the palette system, but at some point I took a step back to look at the task, and it was cleary much easier and more useful to write a basic RTC txt file converter

So there's a converter, good for RTC'lers...
You would not recommend doing it the palette way with a
dungeon made from scratch? I guess in case of DM and CSB it
would make sense to use the convert or if there is an existing
RTC dungeon or parts of it...

@ian_scho: interesting approach you do, I see that the more
possiblilities you have the bigger the project gets and the more
one needs to keep everything ordered..

Instead of reading monster_ai.LUA and making your own 3000 line code hell, why not just inject ideas into your monster's head by calling a function (dsb_ai), passing in a verb?

someday I will look into this and hopefully understand...who does not want to cram complex mechanisms into their dungeon??

[Joramun]

I admit that DSB editing isn't as user-friendly as CSBwin or RTC...

what is not yet the case can ever become..

I'd say it won't improve. It's just a matter of what you have to learn in order to make the mechanics :
- in CSBWin, you make DSAs (which is very powerful, but lacks readability)
- in RTC, you're using a set amount of objects, which is normally the most userfriendly, but the less powerful
(it's still ok now, though I never got around some functions, probably by lack of perseverence)
- in DSB, you program it (which is very powerful and still readable), so you're bound to learn LUA (which is an easy language). Remy's Editor is quite powerful, though.

There will be alist where you can look up the pallete indices, so
you don't need to remember, no?

Since you have to define the color palette in your own paint program, you have to decide what color is what, so the list is yours to make and remember.

ah, ok that's a start. The examples are easy enough to understand..is the CENTER attribute absolutely necessary when there is no other way to put the graphic, like round drains (always "centered") Is it bad if you omitt the ,CENTER?

As a general case, omitting is bad, because all parameters end up to be arguments (=input) of a function,
and if an argument is missing, bad things happen.
In a few particular cases (designed so), arguments can be omitted. (it just means there is a DEFAULT argument)

The (level, x, y) coordinateswhere does the program get these from? I guess from the level map=color map??
(I have yet to look at the TEST dungeon, so probably no need to answer!!

Each level is defined in dungeon.lua (level 1, 2 etc.) as a full map.
The map is either:
- in full text ( array of 0 and 1, like in RTC .TXT) see "my" CSB and DM dungeons
- or a colormap, that has to be imported (see the test dungeon !!)

So there's a converter, good for RTC'lers...
You would not recommend doing it the palette way with a
dungeon made from scratch? I guess in case of DM and CSB it
would make sense to use the convert or if there is an existing
RTC dungeon or parts of it...

I recommend using Remy's editor, or palette+text editor.

My converter is useful only if your RTC dungeon.txt is 99.9 % done,
because any big map layout / item layout will require tedious work in the text file,
and NO mechanics are translated except the very basic ones (relays and counters),
moreover some of them must be fixed by hand !!

[Parallax]

Essentially, DSB uses the dungeon's colorconvert table to figure out what to put in a given square, based on its palette index. For example, this line from the test dungeon:

Code: Select all

[4] = {0, "fountain_lion", SOUTH},

Can you associate several archetypes with a given entry by say, having two or more lines for the same color index? I might reconsider using bitmaps if you can.

I have tried to make DSB dungeons several times. At first, I tried using bitmaps and the palette converter. I did not like it. Then I tried it with Joramund's RTSB, but I found the output very hard to read and build on. Remy's editor was the one that allowed me to go furthest, but I still didn't get farther than ten levels worth of layout and about 5% of the mechanics implemented before I started hitting points where his editor couldn't handle what I wanted to do, and leaving the editor with the lua file and modifying that meant I could not go back to the editor afterward.

I guess the first person to get a DSB dungeon out wins the privilege of writing a tutorial about it.

[Adamo]

is there a chance for a user-friendly editor for DSB? I mean, like CSBwin or RTC editors

[zoom]

I could live with 2 or more editors, e.g. like ADGE and csbuild

[Gambit37]

I admit that DSB editing isn't as user-friendly as CSBwin or RTC...

- in DSB, you program it (which is very powerful and still readable), so you're bound to learn LUA (which is an easy language).

This is the biggest barrier to entry for getting people interested in making dungeons for DSB. At the end of the day, unless you're of programmer mentality, DSB dungeon creation is too complicated. It doesn't matter that LUA is a 'simple' language -- most people just want to build stuff easily and quickly without having to learn another language to do it.

I can see the power of DSB and I've often thought about switching to it from RTC, as RTC has a lot of restrictions (ie, it's basically still Dungeon Master). I could get around those restrictions in DSB, but it would take too long to get up to speed and I don't want to waste the last few years of learning RTC.

[zoom]

I would not say it was a waste to learn RTC !! What you learned you learned, I am shocked you see it that way!
true, it will not be 100% useful, but nevertheless, you know a great
deal about how things can be done and got the gist of dungeon building/ engine restrictions and more..

edit: I witnessed over the past years! that you suggested
a lot to RTC, with preserverance and dedication. So a good 1% of
it is probably yours, so it is comprehensible that you don't want to waste this effort. I think on the long run it won't be so bad to switch to DSB;something call it experience in life tells me..
there has to be a proper editor, else not many dungeons can /will be created, and what will that be good for??
DSB's edit0r problem has to be tackled!!!!!

[Gambit37]

I don't mean that I think my time on RTC is wasted, far from it. That's why I still want to build my dungeon using it. But if I did ever switch to DSB (very unlikely), *then* the time I had spent on RTC would feel somehow... pointless.

I think rather more than 1% of RTC happened because of *everyones* input. Certainly GG did the actual work, but I think it's fair to say that RTC would never have got to where it has without the the years of play testing, bug reporting and suggestions that we have all given.

Anyway, this isn't about one engine being better than other or anything like that. Each engine suits different types of people, that was the point I was making.

[ian_scho]

Each engine suits different types of people, that was the point I was making.

THAT was exactly what I was thinking.

[zoom]

@gambit and others
Yeah, I forgot the others..
My point was, it would not be irrelevant or a waste having used RTC -instead- imo it would very likely help building dungeons with DSB.
plus I understand people are not very likely to switch because of a bond to RTC and the obstacles to DSB. Switching could therefore feel pointless indeed, but it would not be...

Totally acceptable when one doesn't want to dive into the "lua ocean", for whatever reason. I am positive this will not be about capability... (May I add in my perspective, I guess lua will roughly be as difficult as html! I could be wrong here, though)

anyway, not much sense to post on here for I don't know whether there is actually an inclination to discuss ?this? further or not.
Just getting my point across. hope noone minds

[Gambit37]

May I add in my perspective, I guess lua will roughly be as difficult as html! I could be wrong here, though

Quite wrong!

HTML is a page description language, it simply describes the structure of a document and is in no way 'programming'. You might be thinking of Javascript?

Lua on the other hand is pure programming and requires a logical mind -- while I'm OK with the basics in any programming language, once I get beyond the simplest stuff it generally becomes nonsense to me because I'm not that kind of thinker.

[Tom Hatfield]

Lua is a scripting language and as such requires a basic programming mindset, but it doesn't even begin to touch on the level of problem solving real programming entails. And yet, my interest in learning Lua is vague at best. About the time I convince myself it would be a good idea, I find something better (in this case, the VSA script engine, which parallels what I'm already using — no, it is what I'm already using). And if I, a programmer, have no interest in building with a scripting language I don't know, how could anyone expect a non-programmer to pick up the torch?

Fortunately, except for a few people who want a full-blown editor, the purpose of DSB isn't to provide a platform for developing DM clones. It's Sophia's pet project. If she wants to make an editor, she will, but I don't see it happening. She's comfortable with the tools and concepts. I think DSB is an awesome achievement, and I lurk this forum for inspiration, but I'm not going to use it because it isn't what I want.

However, one of my interests is to release friendly tools for prospective dungeon builders. Actually, I want those tools for myself, but I'm all about giving them away when I'm done with them. Killing two birds with one stone, as it were. The community is a powerful driving force behind development, but it's rarely the direction unless they're paying you for it. At most, their opinions have an influence.

Back in the days of Doom, all the editing tools were made by fans. When Quake was released, id released qradiant with it, but extraordinarily few people cared to use it for precisely the same reason as nobody wants to use DSB: it was too hard to learn. So fans made convenient editors and released them freely, and the Quake community flourished.