Unsure about experience/levelling and some skills

[Octopuss]

Replaying my old save from year ago (this game won't ever die for me)

1) I re-read some threads here and still confused about few things...
If you get to archmaster, say, fighter (like it was real, but w/e), can you still increase some of the hidden skills? I read about the block method, raising some general defensive skill. Let's theorize I get to archmaster this way - will I be able to raise skills associated with proper attacks, like chop for example? This goes pretty much for all four classes.

2) Is using disrupt on non-ghosts any interesting for gaining wizard experience? I'm not even at om master yet and already feel like shooting myself in the head from constant clicking on five runes

3) Any other reasonable way to train priest levels aside from switching the brain off and casting endless amounts of fireshields?

I'm rather sure some of this was discussed before but honestly, I don't have THAT much time at work to read through everything:)

[zoom]

1>
not sure about it , but I guess you can still improve on the hidden skills.
not sure either , about how much of an impact hidden skills` level has on
actions associated with that skill. It is rather complicated matter.

2: nope. afaik, you improve on fighter

3: use warcry in front of monsters.

[beowuuf]

2) Actually, disrupt is a wizard option isn't it? I sense the need for a test dungeon with a lowest level wizard in a high value dungeon level with a vorpal blade

3) Watch out, in DM this improved ninja, in CSB it improved priest - or vice versa

[Christopher]

Disrupt is definately for Wizard levels.
I believe any item with a calming effect adds to priest levels (horn of fear, snake staff).

[zoom]

yes , it is wizard level, but like the other options of vorpal blade,
you can damage (1 to 5 points each hit) a screamer for instance,
but you do only get wizard when used against immaterial entities;
and probably you get no or little fighter experience when you use
vorpal blade attacks(disrupt) against rats or whatever, so to refer
to the question 2 > no, not relevant for wizard levels..

[Adamo]

here`s a table of subskills (last post):
http://www.dungeon-master.com/forum/vie ... 3&start=30

[Octopuss]

From Encyclopaedia:

Skill Levels

To determine a champion's level in any of the skills, the following table is used: (Actually, no table exists. Simply a power of two algorithm, which means that Archmaster is not the last level.)

Is this true in any way?

[zoom]

the encyclopaedia has still some errors in the levelling up page
ninja levels get sometimes anti-fire etc - indeed a-fire is not
mentioned at all(you would not get point increase!)
I mentioned it once a few years back, but by the size of the thing
it is not easy to keep track of everything things are forgotten, and I was too lazy to mention it again..

Statistics increase

When a champion has gained enough experience in one skill to reach a new level, some of the champion's statistics are increased based on which skill he progressed in:

* All skills increase Health and Stamina.
* Fighter skills increase Strength and Dexterity.
* Ninja skills increase Strength and Dexterity.
* Priest skills increase Mana, Wisdom and Anti-Magic.
* Wizard skills increas Mana and Wisdom.

Probably this page you mention is not completed .
Anyway, I thought Archmaster was definitely the last level but
who knows!

[ChristopheF]

I added anti-fire to the page and updated the comment about levels and archmaster being the 'last' level.
I hope it is clearer now.

[Octopuss]

I am half sure priest sometimes gives stamina too... But I am not sure really, got archmasters ninjas and everything else is 4+ so I cannot really test at will, lol.

[zoom]

Octopuss you mean vitality, I guess?
http://dmweb.free.fr/?q=node/691
The level gain page is not correct yet.(vitality is missing)

I am not completely sure whether Fighters gain A-Fire sometimes,
but i am positive. I would have to check in game.f. gain vitality.
Christophe, I would wait until all this is clear and then update!
Leveling Fighters gives always 100% STrenght (at least 1 point,
because it is a primary attribute or something) but the other
increases are not at all guaranteed. Up to 3? points can be gained,but 0/1-2 is the norm;
but honestly it would be the best to further check on these things..
csbwin source:
magic.cpp has the leveling string "JUST GAINED.."

DSB could shed some light on the leveling , too. I think no modifications
have been made to leveling up, but who knows

Or, last case I can think of, good old "test it in game"

Having the leveling part in the source encripted would be interesting, though.

[Octopuss]

Octopuss you mean vitality, I guess?

lol yes, I was still half asleep and just looked at one of the above posts and somehow mixed stamina with vitality (damn other games )

What I don't get is the weird way of specific increases. I found out that once I gain a level, in order to get different increases I can't just keep loading forever. I have to load and perform few actions of ANY kind. Then it changes. What kind of obscure code is that?

[Mon Ful Ir]

What I don't get is the weird way of specific increases. I found out that once I gain a level, in order to get different increases I can't just keep loading forever. I have to load and perform few actions of ANY kind. Then it changes. What kind of obscure code is that?

Could be that it uses some aspect of your immediate environment as a random seed.

[ChristopheF]

Based on a quick study of the LevelUp function in the CSBwin source code, I have updated the page again. Now all skills are listed: Health, Stamina, Mana, Strength, Dexterity, Wisdom, Vitality, Anti-Fire and Anti-Magic.

[zoom]

looks cool

[dayday2008]

I have a question about levelling.

The question is, what is the best and/or quickest way to help Stamm and Halk to gain mana?

I am aware that staffs, necklaces and the 'EE' potion can give champions a mana boost but it took me ages to help them to be self sufficient at gaining mana power. Is there not a quicker way?

[zoom]

warcrying in front of monsters (except for gigglers).
Descending levels helps , too.

[dayday2008]

Really is it that simple?

[beowuuf]

I think warcry only works in CSB, hence CSBwin.

[zoom]

??
definitely not. In DM you gain fighter and priest levels with warcry, done back
in the AMIGA days with autofire and PC version and still in csbwin, so no doubt about that.
In CSB it also works, though the experience thing is different.
(wanted to post a link or two, but the ency has removed or changed the action information sadly )
edit: found it:
http://dmweb.free.fr/?q=node/690

[zoom]

in custom dungeons it does often not work

[Adamo]

what do you mean that "warcry do not work in custom dungeons"?

1. Do not scare the creatures, wchich has high "fear" factor? Custom dungeon author might have changed the monster`s bravery values.

(For example gigglerss has minimum bravery value, while munchers has the same value set to maximum; higher value means the less probability for scare the monster; BR=0 means the monster will always run away, BR=15 means it will never run away).

However, it`s not that simple. Even if the warcry action was succeeded (the monster SHOULD run away), there`s yet another thing that determines if the monster will do this (there`s probably <I think so> a fixed level of probability for all monsters if the succeeded warcry action will be performed); that`s why the warcry sometimes failes in front of a giggler <That value might be different for WARCRY, BLOW HORN, BRANDISH etc - but all these are just my speculations!>

And, of course, the more monsters is in front of you, the less probable the action is (it`s easier to scare 1 giggler than 4).

2. Not gives you an experience in custom dungeons?
The custom dungeon author might have changed the experience level gained for attacking each monster type.
Run a CSBwin custom dungen, change the screen to x1 and you can easily check it out: stand up in front of a monster, make a warcry and check the experience gained (there will be exact exp value shown in hexes)

------------------------------------------------

When you`re not attacking anything by warcry (you cast that action in front of a wall), it may really not give you any experiance (not sure about that).

BTW, there`s a bravery etc. table:
http://www.dungeon-master.com/forum/vie ... hp?t=26563

[zoom]

I meant this way of gaining priest levels is not guaranteed to
work in custom dungeons, since it is considered to be/seen as cheating by some!!! So, custom designers can restrict/forbid or change the use and experience of warcry with adge etc.

2. in conflux III for instance there is no warcry command, no?
------
!!
without monsters,
warcry action in DM + CSB, does not give any priest but does give fighter experience(main skill 00 only).
I don't really know what hidden skills are involved as said it is a bit different for csb compared to DM action wise;
but anyway, with a monster in front it "probably" gives champion no hidden skill but(00 main skill) for fighter[same as without monster] and additionally influence(14 hidden skill) (as well as 02 main skill) for priest.or only the hidden skill14 gets experience which, in turn adds "naturally" this experience to the main skill 02 priest


thanks for the table.
to 1:
monsters can get scared or reluctant to attack if low on hitpoints,
even in groups. When you watch a speedrun of dm there are couples of worms where the one that did get damage is showing the side view towards the party where the other worm is still aggressive and shows front and takes precedence(leads monster group) considering movement.
(monster group will only flee I think if all monster group members are scared if party is in sight range. the scared monster won't attack as fast as the not scared one, so scaring monsters has some effect still)
So not only influencing monsters does change the behaviour of monsters but also damage done or sightradius, but this is digressing(off topic)

[Adamo]

while BLOW HORN has always influence subskill (priest), in CSB WAR CRY is assigned to the fighter:

Code: Select all

NR ATTACK TYPE EXP DEF STA LKR DAM FAT SKILL   SUBSKILL    CSB
00 N           0   0   0   0   0   0   fighter -
01 BLOCK       8   36  4   22  15  6   fighter (parry)
02 CHOP        10  0   8   48  48  8   fighter (club)      STA= 10
03 X1          0   0   0   0   0   0   fighter -
04 BLOW HORN   0  -4   1   0   0   6   priest  (influence)
05 FLIP        0  -10  0   0   0   3   priest  (identify)
06 PUNCH       8  -10  1   38  32  1   ninja   (fight)
07 KICK        13 -5   3   28  48  5   ninja   (fight)
08 WAR CRY     7   4   1   0   0   3   priest  (influence) fighter (parry)
09 STAB1       15 -20  3   30  48  5   ninja   (fight)
10 CLIMB DOWN  15 -15  40  0   0   35  ninja   (steal)
11 FREEZE LIFE 22 -10  3   0   0   20  priest  (influence)
12 HIT         10  16  3   20  20  4   ninja   (fight)
13 SWING       6   5   2   32  16  6   fighter (swing)
14 STAB2       12 -15  4   42  60  10  fighter (thrust)
15 THRUST      19 -17  13  57  66  16  fighter (thrust)    STA= 17
16 JAB         11 -5   3   70  8   2   fighter (thrust)
17 PARRY       17  29  1   18  8   18  fighter (parry)
18 HACK        9   10  6   27  25  8   fighter (swing)
19 BERZERK     40 -10  26  46  96  30  fighter (swing)     STA= 40
20 FIREBALL    35 -7   5   0   0   42  wizard  (fire)
21 DISPELL     25 -7   2   0   0   31  wizard  (air)
22 CONFUZE     0  -7   2   0   0   10  priest  (influence)
23 LIGHTING    30 -7   4   0   0   38  wizard  (air)
24 DISRUPT     10 -7   5   46  55  9   wizard  (air)
25 MELEE       24 -5   17  64  60  20  fighter (club)      STA= 25
26 X2          0  -15  1   0   0   10  ninja   (steal)
27 INVOKE      25 -9   2   0   0   16  wizard  -
28 SLASH       9   4   2   26  16  4   fighter (swing)
29 CLEAVE      12  0   10  40  48  12  fighter (swing)
30 BASH        11  0   9   32  50  20  fighter (club)
31 STUN        10  5   2   50  16  7   fighter (club)
32 SHOOT       9  -15  3   0   0   14  ninja   (shoot)     EXP= 20
33 SPELLSHIELD 20 -7   1   0   0   30  priest  (defend)
34 FIRESHIELD  20 -7   2   0   0   35  priest  (defend)
35 FLUXCAGE    12  8   6   0   0   2   wizard  -
36 HEAL        0  -20  1   0   0   19  priest  (heal)
37 CALM        0  -5   1   0   0   9   priest  (influence)
38 LIGHT       20  0   3   0   0   10  wizard  (air)
39 WINDOW      30 -15  2   0   0   15  wizard  (earth)
40 SPIT        25 -7   3   0   0   22  wizard  (fire)
41 BRANDISH    0  -4   2   0   0   10  priest  (influence)
42 THROW       5   0   0   0   0   0   ninja   (throw)
43 FUSE        1   8   2   0   0   2   wizard  -

EXP - experience
DEF - defence
STA - stamina
LKR - luck required
DAM - damage
FAT - fatigue
CSB - differences for CSB (this table is for DM actually)
SKILL wizard SUBSKILL water is not used here

if anybody wants to compare all monster`s properities on one table...
I hope it is visible on your screen (code list). It is on mine (lines are displayed ok). If not, change the screen resolution and try again.

Code: Select all

ID NAME     ARM B.H  Hpr A Msp Asp STR POI SR X1 AW SR X2 BR SK TL X3 MR PR AL SS ST

00 Scorpion 55  150  55  4 8   20  150 240 3  5  1  1  11 9  9  2  6  7  8  4  5  2
01 Slime    20  110  20  3 15  32  80  15  2  3  1  3  9  10 3  3  2  4  14 4  8  3
02 Giggler  50  10   110 0 3   5   10  0   6  7  3  1  10 0  1  7  5  3  2  2  2  2
03 Eye      30  40   80  5 10  21  58  0   10 0  2  3  10 10 6  9  12 3  11 3  1  1
04 Hound    45  101  65  4 9   8   90  0   4  5  5  1  15 15 8  5  4  3  10 3  4  1
05 Ruster   100 60   30  3 20  18  30  0   2  3  2  1  8  3  3  4  3  8  5  5  6  2
06 Screamer 5   165  5   6 120 10  5   0   1  1  1  1  1  15 0  1  4  6  7  2  15 2
07 Rocks    170 50   10  4 185 15  40  5   3  6  4  1  4  12 5  2  3  14 6  4  15 1
08 Rive     15  30   80  6 11  16  55  0   3  2  4  1  4  6  6  4  8  12 15 6  1  1
09 Golem    240 120  35  3 21  14  219 0   3  2  0  1  15 15 11 3  7  15 15 3  15 4
10 Mummy    25  33   40  3 17  12  20  0   4  2  2  1  7  9  4  5  5  1  15 3  8  4
11 Flame    45  80   60  1 255 8   105 0   4  1  3  1  5  10 5  5  9  15 15 4  1  1
12 Skeleton 22  20   80  4 7   7   22  0   3  1  0  1  6  9  5  6  3  6  15 2  3  1
13 Coualt   42  39   88  4 5   10  90  100 3  4  3  1  4  3  7  5  8  3  6  2  1  1
14 Vexirk   47  44   90  5 10  20  75  0   5  3  3  4  2  5  9  13 11 5  3  4  6  6
15 Worm     72  70   35  4 18  19  45  35  1  10 10 1  11 10 5  1  3  9  11 3  5  2
16 Antman   28  20   41  3 13  8   25  0   3  4  3  1  8  4  1  2  1  2  3  2  3  3
17 Muncher  180 8    150 4 1   16  28  20  2  3  4  1  13 15 9  1  4  0  0  2  1  1
18 Knight   140 60   70  4 14  6   105 0   5  0  0  1  15 15 10 7  10 15 15 3  4  1
19 Zytaz    15  33   65  5 5   18  61  0   8  5  2  3  7  7  12 10 6  5  15 7  1  1
20 Water    75  144  50  3 25  25  66  0   1  8  3  1  9  7  6  7  7  10 14 5  4  3
21 Oitu     33  77   60  4 7   15  130 0   2  9  5  1  10 6  9  6  9  5  8  4  2  2
22 Demon    68  100  75  3 10  14  100 0   4  4  3  4  9  15 13 1  13 5  10 4  2  1
23 L.Chaos  255 180  130 5 12  22  210 0   9  6  3  6  7  3  15 15 15 11 15 4  6  5
24 Dragon   110 255  70  4 13  28  255 0   5* 4  6  2  12 7  15 1  13 12 6  5  4  4
25 L.Order  255 180  130 5 12  22  210 0   9  6  3  6  7  3  15 15 15 11 15 4  6  5
26 G.Lord   255 180  130 5 12  22  210 0   9  6  3  6  7  3  15 15 15 11 15 4  6  5

ARM - armour
B.H - base health
Hpr - hit probability
A   - attack type
Msp - move speed
Asp - attack speed
STR - strenght
POI - poison
SR  - sightrange
X1  - unknown/unused 1
AW  - awareness
SR  - spellrange
X2  - unknown/unused 2
BR  - bravery
SK  - skill
TL  - teleport
X3  - unknown/unused 3
MR  - magic resistance
PR  - poison resistance
AL  - attack lenght
SS  - status speed
ST  - attack status speed

* - for CSB; in DM dragon spellrange is different

INFO (from ADGE readme - credits for rain`):

ID (IDnum): The number of the monster for identification purposes. Unknown use.

ARM (Armor): The defense value of the monster.

B.H (Base health): The base health value of a monster. This value will be the base value used when calculating how much health a monster has when created via a monster generator actuator.

Hpr (Hitprob): The base value for calculating whether or not a monster's attack hits or misses.

A (Attack type): This value dictates what kind of attack the monster uses. Here is a compiled list of what each value represents, but is not 100% perfect nor tested:

1: Damage is modified by victim's anti-fire value,
2: The armor of the victim is halved when calculating damage (never used in original game, however can be used in custom games),
3: "Ordinary" attack,
4: Deals piercing damage (see armor editor),
5: Damage is modified by victim's anti-magic value,
6: Damage is modified by victim's wisdom value.

Msp (Move speed): The minimum amount of time required to pass before a monster can move again.

Asp (Attack speed): The minimum amount of time required to pass before a monster can attack again.

STR (Strength): The base value for how much damage the monster inflicts.

POI (Poison): The amount of poison inflicted when the monster successfully hits a character.

SR (Sightrange): How far the monster can see, used in AI calculations.

X1 (Unused1): Unused/unknown

AW (Awareness): How far the monster can automatically detect the player and persue them.

SR (Spellrange): How far the monster can be to attack from a distance (cast spells).

X2 (Unused1): Unused/unknown

BR (Bravery): The monsters resistance to warcry/blow horn/brandish/etc.

SK (Skill): The base value of experience that the monster gives.

TL (Teleport): Not sure exactly, but when set to 15, allows the monster to "teleport" a few squares away (i.e. lord chaos).

X3 (Unused1): Unused/unknown

MR (Magic res): The resistance to magical spells/effects, 15 = immune.

PR (Poison res): The resistance to poison effects (poison cloud/bolt), 15 = immune.

AL (Attack length): Amount of time to display attack graphic.

SS (Status speed): probability of L/R mirroring and changing its X/Y shiftgroup in the same monster status (front), 15 = never changes L/R and X/Y.

ST (Atk Stat Spd): probability of L/R mirroring and changing its X/Y shiftgroup in the same monster status (attack), 15 = never changes L/R and X/Y.

[Adamo]

monsters can get scared or reluctant to attack if low on hitpoints,
even in groups.

it seems that not only the "direct" party actions like WARCRY or BLOW HORN may cause monster`s retreat, but also:
- when a monster(s) has low hitpoints (does that depend on bravery factor?),
- when a monster is being attacked by closing door (does that depend on bravery factor?)

I don`t really know lot of monster`s AI. We should ask Paul Stevens about that.

As for now I think:

1. There are actually two values responsible for monster`s retreat: monster`s bravery factor (different for giggler, different for muncher etc) and independently some additional "action factor", differenciated for those actions with cause monster`s fear (WARCRY, BLOW HORN, etc).
Thrue or not?

2. Monster`s retreat can be caused independently by:
- "direct" actions like BLOW HORN, if succeeded,
- low monster`s HP,
- monster being attacked by the door
They all depends on monster`s bravery.
Thrue or not?

3. To cause a retreat, all monsters in a group should get scared (that`s for the direct actions), so there`s four time less probalility to scare four gigglers that one.
Thrue or not?

4. When a certain monster is being scared, it behaves in a different way than normally (runs away). Does the duration of staying monster in "special" state depends on the monster`s bravery (does it remains longer for, say, giggler, and shorter for skeleton) or is there one timer for all kind of monsters?
(I guess the timer is activated for each monster in a group separately, not for a group of monster).
???

[Octopuss]

Should be somehow specified in the technical documentation part of the web how much experience does war cry give towards fighter and priest level. It is not the same.

[zoom]

apparently it is different for csb and dm as well

[Octopuss]

All I can talk about is DOS version of DM...

[MasterWuuf]

Wish I still had my DOS DM. I lost it in a move.

I'm thankful for "the gang" sharing. I'm now cheerfully "war crying" the screamers on level four.

[money]

ok... so i've now tried a few of the various methods and this is where i believe the "Warcry" benefits are...

ST version Increases Fighter and Priest Levels
DOS version increases Fighter and Priest Levels
CSBwin progresses Priest Level
RTC Progresses Priest Level (takes a lot longer though)

Are there any plans (or ways) to modify the CSBWin/RTC games to mirror the orriginal games more closely in this respect?