Travelling long distances in DM style games

[Trantor]

First, it looks absolutely wonderful. Second, I'd say keep the text, it adds atmosphere and mood. Third, The compass is great, but I agree on removing NSEW. Fourth, I'd approach that woman, though "attack" might not be the correct word...

[Broken_Paladin]

Thats pretty sweet looking gambit, How long does it usually take you to create a single event like that?

[Gambit37]

No idea, I haven't built any yet; still conceptualising this stuff.

Anyway, depends what you mean by build: if purely using the RTC editor to put the mechanics together, I imagine it would take 5-15 minutes, depending how much experimentation is required.

But all the other stuff that goes into a scene is the hard stuff: the graphics for a start could take weeks -- these samples use backgrounds I've found on the web, but I intend to create my own 3D art for the scenes, so that it's all internally consistent.

[linflas]

first of all, nice visuals !

considering your options, mine is clear : full step by step.
i would probably add a shortcut feature that is activated after the first visit on a important place (like Oblivion's).
RTC permits 255x255 squares levels which is enough for having a full step by step travelling with well placed invisible teleporters.
Filling those levels is also very easy imho : there are no walls, no doors, only various flooritems. i never tried the random level feature, but that may work for the basic layout ?

I don't think the RTC compiled file will be that big but i'm afraid of RTC engine reactions with hundreds of 255x255 levels loaded in memory...

[Gambit37]

If we assume a tile in RTC is 10 feet square, then 255 squares is 2550 feet, or about half a mile.

Some of my locations are many miles apart, certainly tens of miles if not hundreds in some situations.

Making a step-by-step style gameplay for this adventure is therefore not really possible. And to be honest, I think it would get very dull actually wandering around a level that big that didn't have much going on.

So Sophia was right, my initial question was very loaded

What I'm trying to do is have a quest type adventure, that gives the player choices about which ways to travel. These choices might be a few "cutscenes" linked together, but ultimately they will simply be joining together the smaller, more discrete parts of the game -- and those parts will be in normal style DM gameplay, eg, investigating a temple, wandering around a city, travelling through caves, etc...

[Sophia]

I don't think the RTC compiled file will be that big but i'm afraid of RTC engine reactions with hundreds of 255x255 levels loaded in memory...

I doubt if anything really bad would happen. I don't know how many bytes per tile RTC uses, but it can't be that many. DSB uses 30 so that's the number I'll use. 30x255x255 is roughly 2MB... so 100 of them is still "only" 200MB.

That said, it'd be a really boring game!

[Trantor]

My dungeon has a level in it with about 100x100 tiles with lots of different wallsets and objects in it, and it runs smoothly. What does slow down, though, is the editor. Jumping to that level takes quite some time, not to mention the pleasure of clicking on a target for a trigger in that level...

[zoom]

Gambit, it is a great idea and could be fun to play.(will be)
If you have fun doing it, do it
erm, sometimes I have the feeling you ask something you already decided for yourself to do it one way!

anyway... it is hard to bring that across here without room for
misinterpretation, so to the topic:

Maybe you would like to go with graphics from free sites
to make it complete in a short time? If this prototype is
finished, you could see how people react. And with that
feedback get some energy to make it more elaborate.
As concept it would work very very well with the kind of
graphics you already employed!!

I see some doubts when doing all graphics from scratch on
your own( in terms of finishing this)
I don't suggest to cheat on your ideas by having not the artistic quality you desire (who am I?? )

Just consider what you can manage easily. I don't know,
just what came up in my mind. -- please continue

[Gambit37]

Thanks for the encouragement

[linflas]

If we assume a tile in RTC is 10 feet square, then 255 squares is 2550 feet, or about half a mile.

actually, i never calculated the real distance like you just did. *converting to metric system* so a tile is about 3 meters long which is... 4 people in 3m... that's... OMG that is so true !
My forest is designed to avoid the "boring travel" effect Sophia's mentioned above, so all events taken from the gamebook should fit on 2 big levels, which means an ellipse of 1/2 mile width and 1 mile height only !... but but !!! it is a tiny copse !

Some of my locations are many miles apart, certainly tens of miles if not hundreds in some situations.

i see, so yes, you have no other choice than cut scenes : ride horses, take a boat, a balloon... whatever. you could also add special events or fights during travels, triggered randomly or by some previous events.

[Gambit37]

I think in your FoD adventure, you don't need to match the real distances because the adventure is in only one location and very tight. And you've designed the scenery so well that it creates a feeling that the area is very big -- even in the demo, it seems as if those tress are very dense and go on for miles. It works very well.

[Gambit37]

OK, I made a proof of concept RTC file. It's pretty rough, there's no text descriptions or encounters, but it gives you some idea of how it will work.

The arrows on the compass show you where the available 'exits' are. The compass will flip to show which direction you're facing -- this is crucial for mapping and I didn't want the scenes to always be facing north.

There are two variations: one map just switches from scene to scene immediately, the other fades. Which do you prefer?

Note that this demo is completely open ended in the sense that you can keep going back and forth to every location. In the game proper, it's unlikely to offer that option -- I'll probably be railroading you most of the time to a specific location with no back-tracking. In this way, I hope to offer a lot of replay value by adding in paths for different encounters or special secrets, or areas that might change the whole outcome of the game....

The images are landscapes I generated using Terragen. I've been experimenting with it to see how easy it will be to use. So these are demo screens that don't technically flow properly, but rest assured in the final game it will make more sense.

Please use RTC 0.49 and place the files in your Modules folder. Make sure your config file doesn't have any TEST or COMPILE lines active. As the screens are optimised for full screen 640x480, I also strongly recommend that your config resolution and setup is set to:

Code: Select all

SCREEN_MODE     640x480x24
FULLSCREEN      YES

If you are using a widescreen LCD, make sure your screen settings are set to "maintain aspect ratio" otherwise everything will look rubbish. (It's in your display drivers options).

When you've done all this, run RTC and select either demo from the menu.

Feedback is most welcome. Thanks!

http://www.friskdesign.com/misc/rtc/traveldemo.RTC
http://www.friskdesign.com/misc/rtc/traveldemo-fade.RTC

Oh, you'll have to use Alt+F4 to quit!

[PaulH]

I have a few views, maybe contradictory ones, but nevertheless...

I don't like the text. To me, with this style of game, the first person evaluates the scene. To be told that they are weary, or look upon with wonder detracts what DM was about which was a live and player oriented interpretation. However I do concede that games of this genre with still graphics often used the text to add this atmosphere, so amalgamating the two will not be easy.

Distances don't really mean much, and are again an interpretation. We expect when gaming to cover a forest in a hour or so, while in real life an adventurer may spend days doing so. Oh to be able to sleep and recharge in 7 seconds

[zoom]

there was once a game, anvil of dawn.(or take phantasy star 2)
It had this overland travel. You should check it out gambit if not already.
Mixing 2 styles (dungeon and overlandtravel) works.
anyway, I tend to like the fade one better, but it does not give that much to the one without fade. fade Feels a bit more like "moving".
Some distinctive points would be good, like a red tent on one
mountain that can be seen when you stand 4 miles afar from it,
and then again, a bit bigger at the mountain slope etc..
or ways that you follow'; I feel a bit lost sometimes when travelling!!

[Gambit37]

Thanks for the input guys.

I don't like the text. To me, with this style of game, the first person evaluates the scene....However I do concede that games of this genre with still graphics often used the text to add this atmosphere, so amalgamating the two will not be easy.

Indeed, it'll be a fine balancing act! I think extra text helps with the atmosphere and can also reveal extra info that you can't otherwise infer from the pictures. For speed of development, the scenes won't necessarily be as complex and rich as I would like, so the text will be fairly essential in some situations.

To be told that they are weary, or look upon with wonder detracts what DM was about which was a live and player oriented interpretation.

But I'm not trying to recreate DM.....

Distances don't really mean much, and are again an interpretation. We expect when gaming to cover a forest in a hour or so, while in real life an adventurer may spend days doing so. Oh to be able to sleep and recharge in 7 seconds

True, but I think it's a bit of a leap to travel between two cities hundreds of miles apart simply by crossing 30-40 DM tiles. Hence the need for the scene setting. I think it adds a nice element otherwise missing fom custom dungeons so far.

there was once a game, anvil of dawn.(or take phantasy star 2) It had this overland travel. You should check it out gambit if not already.

I've not played those. However, I'm trying to avoid "influences" and just coming up with something that works well enough.

Fade Feels a bit more like "moving".

Yes, I agree, thanks.

Some distinctive points would be good, like a red tent on one mountain that can be seen when you stand 4 miles afar from it, and then again, a bit bigger at the mountain slope etc.. or ways that you follow'; I feel a bit lost sometimes when travelling!!

Yes, there will be more detail on relevant screens. These demos were created with Terragen which can't do much except simple low/high landscapes. Terragen 2, MojoWorld or some of the more sophisticated tools can import objects but I have neither the time, money or computer power to buy/learn those, so details will simply be Photoshopped in where necessary.

[Gambit37]

Anybody else had a chance to look at this? I'm really keen to get feedback Thanks.

[linflas]

I had a quick look at it and here are my remarks :
- finally, i don't like the compass as a way to travel, i felt lost immediately. i would prefer well placed arrows onto the landscape (like DM's with a neat transparency for example) showing me travel possibilities.
- your landscapes are nice but as zoom said, they need a few trees, buildings, signals, etc. to help the player not to be lost, or maybe you can add description on the arrows ("To Stonebridge" for example).

[Gambit37]

- finally, i don't like the compass as a way to travel, i felt lost immediately. i would prefer well placed arrows onto the landscape (like DM's with a neat transparency for example) showing me travel possibilities.

Hey that's a cool idea, though it does mean the interface is more 'dispersed' -- I like having the controls all in one place.

The problem with using just arrows is that you don't know in which direction you are heading, which is why I combined them with a compass. I think a compass is essential to help players map, and if you pay attention to its rotation, you know exactly which direction you are facing.

What do others think?

- your landscapes are nice but as zoom said, they need a few trees, buildings, signals, etc. to help the player not to be lost, or maybe you can add description on the arrows ("To Stonebridge" for example).

Yes, I agree, but these are only demo screens that I put together using the free version of Terragen. Final screens would be better -- though that's dependent on getting a better computer and better landscaping software that can handle importing 3D objects.

[linflas]

yes, the compass can be displayed as a reference but i wouldn't put active buttons *on* it.

[Gambit37]

Why wouldn't you put the arrows on the compass? It seems the most obvious thing to do?

[linflas]

that is obvious but i was talking about clickable zones all around the landscape. Like Sierra point and click games. so the transparent arrows are dispatched *into* the landscape, not grouped in a right-bottom interface.

[Gambit37]

I never actually played any of the Sierra games!

Do you mean actually displaying the arrows, say on the left and right of the screen, or simply having invisible hotspots over the available exits -- so if I clicked on the right half of the screen , and it's an available exit, I'll go that way?

It would be nice if RTC supported 'hover' states -- small arrows could be displayed as you move the mouse around...

[Broken_Paladin]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6jyTORpJKtA

Here is a sierra game called goblins, when you move your mouse to the edge of the screen a arrow/door appears for you to move. I think this is what linflas is talking about.

[Gambit37]

That can't be done in RTC, The best you could do would be to have the exits clearly shown as part of the picture.

I don't really want to screw around with the pictures too much -- I need a way of generating landscapes quickly because this is a big enough project as it is. The less work I need to do on the screens, the quicker it gets built and unfortunately I really wouldn't have the time to make every screen have unique exits shown. That's why I compromised with the compass/directions all in one, it's far less work and far easier to implement.

Of course, I could go the other way and just have small discrete arrows appear in different places, and get rid of the text and the compass completely, but I like the text idea panel idea.

Ho hum. I'm clearly not going to satisfy everyone.

[Broken_Paladin]

Just make a game that will make you happy and you will be proud of.

[zoom]

Personally, I'd like a small test game first, with a bit of a story.. nothing big nor complete. To get an idea of a large scale game as well as what works for me as a player and why(or for you design-wise).
In addition this "prototype" should be doable in (comparatively little) time. (?) Plus it is practice and you produce results, something that is crucial to motivation. (!)
I would give feedback, of course and I believe a tiny demo would be a good foundation to give it in the first place.

[Gambit37]

Absolutely, I agree! But even a demo will take a long time to produce. I've been playing with RTC for a few years, but it's only this year that I started thinking about my game properly, so it will still take a long time to get to that point...

I don't know how long Forest of Doom demo took for Linflas, but with the new graphics and stuff, I imagine the construction time is about 10,000 times longer than the actual play time! Mine will be similar!

[Kliber]

Very nice demo Gambit! was like Playing "Myst" again, nice landscapes and the fade demo its the best, I like the compass but without the cardinal signs, since like Linflas said I feel lost specially in one landscape where the compass its upside down, didnt know that RTC could be used to display this kind of game, I wonder if objects can be placed in those pics, I think not, but would be cool if you can find a weapon laying around in the meadows...

Nice work, waiting for the beta! =)

[beowuuf]

Fourth, I'd approach that woman, though "attack" might not be the correct word...

Seconded! I mean.... how do we ban these disruptive elements again?


Hmm, I tried to make a quick mock up of what I meant earlier, but it doens't seem to have worked out well. The idea would be to have a huge area in only a few steps:




So if you walk forward a step, then you are supposed to lurch forward a large distance, but to a recogniseable point that has been expanded, liek the edge of the lake.

That way, you feel the jump of large distances for only a few squares - use some pillars skinned with backgrounds fr directions you cannot walk in.

[beowuuf]

I forgot to say, i like the fade between changes!