'Toe to Toe' with the dragon

[Trantor]

Great idea Paul, I might try that once I have more time (which should be around 2019).

[Paul Stevens]

I played reincarnated HALK with DM Rules.
28 objects got me to the Worm Level
with a few Cheese in my backpack.

[beowuuf]

I think one flask would replace the need for food - as long as you can drink frequent water with the flask, stamina potions will remove the ill effects of

Not a fun way to play, but certainly would get to you towards optimal

Played through a couple of times - made a mistake with wuuf and died at creature cavern with an item count of 18 (8 of those came from thinking a chest might be a free set of items!)

On worm level with @20 items so far, picked linflas and then picked stamm later to see exactly what was needed to wipe out the wooden door on level 2. So that was four extra items added!

[Paul Stevens]

made a mistake with wuuf and died at creature cavern

Don't forget......save and restore are legal.

Halk ain't going to create too many potions
out of the gate. He seemed like a good
challenge. I tried Tiggy a couple of times but
her lack of stamina was a bummer.

[beowuuf]

I would suggest stamm - comparable stats, but you get the axe

Hmm, I might go back to wuuf... depending on:

Does anyone remember off the top of their heads the value of strength you need to successfully chop a door? Does CSBwin / atari have the kick option also breaks the door, or is that in my imagination?

[sucinum]

Does anyone remember off the top of their heads the value of strength you need to successfully chop a door?

Should be 40 or close to.

[Sophia]

Does CSBwin / atari have the kick option also breaks the door, or is that in my imagination?

Though I don't remember for sure what CSBwin does, DSB has the KICK attack set to be able to break down doors, and DSB was designed with extensive reference to the CSBwin code, so odds are very good that CSBwin has this option as well.

[Paul Stevens]

On worm level with @20 items so far

Oh. Wow! I started several times
and manged a best of 23.

I would suggest stamm

Nobody said it had to be a solo run, either.

[beowuuf]

I need to check, but I think the item count of your second champion seems to count though

I would suggest stamm first so you have your door chopping and axe, then wuuf who gives you mana, flask and an extra item. Added to stamm's three extra items, you should have enough for the four required item drops in the first four levels without needing to surrender the necessary torch pick up!

Smash the level two door for the gold key, leaves you doing the three level three areas without picking up anything extra - surrendering one item to the time is of the essense teleporter

[beowuuf]

Just checked - champions don't add to item count! So really you could go stamm for axe and strength, wuuf for flask, linflas for bow (for level six) and... someone else.

So you seem to need 20 item pick ups by the start of level 4, but you don't need a single pick up on level four itself if you have stamm for the axe, though it might be best to pick up a gold coin here. Oh, and you might need the bow if you don't have linflas and decide that is one of the three riddle items you want.

[Antman]

Had a go last night but I'm going to start again. Forgot to put on DM Rules, made a couple of mistakes and will choose different characters. I think I was at 18 or 19 by the worm level. Ended up on the Knights level at about 40 but had no food or water, bad planning by me. You can survive without food or without water but not without both.

Also, Hawks stats go down when he is reincarnated, while the others seem to go, which, according to the DM Encyclopaedia is correct. There is also a new ghost bug I haven't seen before, I've got a recording of it so I'll email it to...if I can make the file upload which is proving difficult at the moment.

[Jan]

Hmm, this competition is... interesting... but too crazy even for me...

But I'm interested in this "new ghost bug".

[beowuuf]

What I love about the competition is there is little optimisation choices right off the bat, even in something that seems so straightforward

[Ameena]

What did you mean by "necessary torch pick-up", Wuffy? I can play the whole of DM without touching a torch and relying solely on magic (re-incarnated Hissssa and Wuuf are my usual party). Presumably a torch would be handy if you took someone who didn't have enough mana to cast any light spells, but you mentioned having Wuuf in your party and he manages just fine .

[beowuuf]

You need to pick the torch up to get the emerald key on level two, so you have a torch for free

[Ameena]

Oh, I don't remember, lol. I remember there being an emerald key on levle 12 (drops off a Knight) but...meh, well, it's been ages since I played it.

[Paul Stevens]

But I'm interested in this "new ghost bug".

There are actually at least two bugs here. Haven't
found and fixed the second.

The first is that if you have dead party members
and you rearrange the living ones (change their
positions) then one of the dead party members
will hide one or more of the living ones for
some purposes. For example, you may no longer
be able to change a living member's position
and a mummy may not know how to attack
because it can see no living member in the
party.

The second is that a dead party member may
still have his position displayed. As if he
were still alive. He will disappear if you
minimize the window and then restore it.
I think. HAven't had much time to look at
it yet.

[Antman]

Also, behind what I mentioned with Hawk is, that when you select DM Rules at the prison entrance, then enter the prison, DM Rules becomes deselected. This didn't used to happen I think, so you have to select DM Rules once you actually start the game.

[Antman]

I just mailed Paul a playfile of my attempt. I finished up with 43 on the count, I believe 42 could be done with a little bit more struggle and possibly 41, but it would be painful. 41 is the minimum you could possibly do I think, I could have taken Linflas instead of Wuuf or Mophus to save on picking up the bow. There's also a chest with food and a flask at the end of level 1 I picked up. Not picking up skeleton keys draws the whole game out a bit as you have to back track through all the bottom levels twice to get the firestaff and bring it back. It's possible to get to the start of the worm level with 18 I think.

[ian_scho]

The first is that if you have dead party members
and you rearrange the living ones (change their
positions) then one of the dead party members
will hide one or more of the living ones for
some purposes. For example, you may no longer
be able to change a living member's position
and a mummy may not know how to attack
because it can see no living member in the
party.

That's what I had last week, then. I didn't know if it was my own fault for downloading special CSBWin version for Conflux or whatever.

Can you drink from fountains with your mouse cursor in the Atari version? (Searches Forum)... Ah-ha! Not a bug.

...Depending on what version of Dungeon Master you are using you can also directly let your party leader (the one whose name is highlighted by left-clicking once on his name) drink from a fountain by clicking an empty hand mouse icon on the fountain...

[Paul Stevens]

I finished up with 43 on the count

I just watched the entire thing at
normal speed. I agree that it should
be possible to clip one or two off the
score. But I think I saw the count at
45, not 43.

I will clean it up and publish it
this evening. Good job. That was
quite a dance you did with the
Materializes and Knight on the
Knight's Level. And a pretty close
call with the spider the second
time through the same level.

[Antman]

Oh whoops, have to + 2 to all the numbers in my post above. I lost count but remembered I was on 42 with just the firestaff to get but I forgot about the scroll and RA key you have to pick up on that level. Those Materializers were incredibly annoying, warcry only seems to affect them for a few seconds. Thankfully saving and loading allow you to take a lot more risks. I think I made one recording down to level 6 then about 15 for the rest of the game because I died so much.

[Paul Stevens]

Your effort is documented here:
http://www.dianneandpaul.net/CSBwin/Com ... ntman45.7z

It appears you did not notice that you can collect
torches from the wall without losing any points.

It seems odd that the Gigglers never stole anything
from you. Was that because you restarted if they
did? Or might there be a bug? Losing your flask
or axe would have been a disaster.

[Antman]

I never knew you could take those torches, then again, I never actually tried...

At first the gigglers plagued me and I had to reload several times, then I just remembered to remove whatever item I was holding in my left hand when I was coming up to some as they seem to steal from that hand only. Not sure if that was always the case or not, I know in the amiga version they would steal from both. This meant my axe was always safe and I could fight them face to face.

[beowuuf]

In atari this has always been the case. Zyx is just so evil that in Conflux they steal from our left hand, right hand,inventory...

[Ameena]

Yeah, and in RTC they steal from both hands too (think this caught me off-guard to begin with as I wasn't expecting it and hadn't emptied anyone's left hand ).

[zoom]

is left hand actually the left hand or the right hand? champions all attack with their left hand!!

[beowuuf]

Left as you look at the screen, right hand to the champion

[zoom]

apart from that(thanks beo) it never occured to me that you can negate the giggler attacks when you empty the left hand!
I could swear they (gigglers) could also steal from your weapon hand as well. (maybe , again a wild guess they have to sucessfully steal something from your left hand so they can continue cleptomaniac mode!")

[beowuuf]

Depends on the version you used - amiga and PC it was both hands.