CSBuild Version 0.785

[Paul Stevens]

CSBuild785.rar is available at dianneandpaul.net

Release notes:

--Allow non-zero number of floor and wall decorations to be used.
--Fix bug that caused error when using DSA 'State Number' spinner.
--Provide default special object for pushbuttons....avoid error message.
--Show 'Start Position' if Dungeon Format else 'Party Location'.
--Update party's position on map when it is changed.
--Provide buttons to place Random Decorations everywhere on a Level.
--Provide buttons to remove all Random Decorations from a Level.
--Release new 'Alternate Tile' set.
--Allow initial Skill Levels as high as 16384000.
--Report Cloned Objects.

This last item is the reason for the release. I was sent a
dungeon with dozens of cloned objects. They appeared to
be causing big problems and there is no way to get rid of
them pleasantly. Version 0.785 now reports the clones and
the next version will provide a way to fix them by choosing which
to keep and which to delete or copy. The editing options will
provide a way to keep cloned actuators (they are not so terrible)
without any error reports. But other kinds of objects which are
cloned will always result in a warning.

[Zyx]

Thank you for this new version.
The copy clone function is a good idea. Many clones were only justified because of the limited numbers of actuators/monsters/decorations/etc

If you plan to work on a repair function, then here are some suggestions about the report of errors for the check functions of CSBuild. I hope they'll seem meaningful to you.

When checking object:
Cloned objects: could they be ordered by ID or could you show their ID so one can know which are the identical clones?
Could you also tell the name of the object (scroll, screamer, apple, etc)

Example:
0(10,04) Object is cloned (giggler) ID 7843
0(10,16) Object is cloned (deth knight) ID 7801
0(12,05) Object is cloned (deth knihgt) ID 7801

Texts with no pointer: could you quote the text on the same line?
Example:
Text-2260 Valid Indirect Pointer is nowhere referenced "NEW LIVES FOR OLD BONES"


Even better (but I know I am asking for too much):
For the checking and report (and the repair of cloned objects), it would be great to have the same dialog as in the "find object" function: the map on the left shows the location of the currently selected item to be repaired, so you can decide immediately if it needs repairing or not.

[Paul Stevens]

Thanks for the suggestions. None are unreasonable but
I doubt that the last will be accomplished. I am having
enough trouble with the 'text-based' version.

I am having some difficulty doing all of this in a way that I
find pleasing (or even acceptable!!) I am going to post
a version 0.785a at 1000 Central Daylight Time this AM
(in about 10 minutes). It is very un-official and is pretty
much only for your use to try and make comments. I will
continue to post these interim releases until we get this
clone business somewhat straightened out. Do not make
permanent changes to your dungeon with these releases.
They might destroy your dungeon!. Version 0.785a is going
to have its clone detection/processing torn out and rewritten
from scratch. Lots of excitment.

I like the looks of your dungeon and would love to have a
part in making it robust (that is about the limit of my dungeon-
making skill).

[Paul Stevens]

Experimental (Clone-buster) version 0.785b of CSBuild is posted.
It is many steps backward but hopefully a better foundation.

[Zyx]

I tried the 785b. It detects some clones, yes, and show their IDs, I guess. But their is no repeated ID, so is it that the editor distinguish between an original and a clone?
I can't check where are located these clones as the coordinates don't show. So I don't know which part I could play to help you here...

[Paul Stevens]

Your observations are quite correct. Version (c) will be better,
version (d) will be a further improvement, etc. I am simply
posting the most recent versions so you can see that progress
is being made and can comment on the direction it is taking.

Keep talking.

Where it currently says: "[06d4] clone"
I plan to expand that line to identify the object by name:
"[06d4] clone Sar Potion"
And then list all the places in the dungeon that point to
that object. It will not be exactly 'user friendly' but it will
be the all the information that is needed. The problem is
that clones can come in so many varieties. First of all, the
clone can be in many places:
1) As the only item in a Cell.
2) In a list of items in a Cell.
3) In a Timer Entry as a Flying Object.
4) In a Chest
5) In a monster's possessions.
6) In a Character's possessions.
7) In the player's hand (the mouse cursor)
And the cloned object can have its own possessions if
it is a chest or monster or scroll. In fact, a chest could
contain itself, a list could loop onto itself, etc. (This
last possibility is really ugly and will not receive any
attention until the simpler problems are solved.)

So I have more-or-less given up on 'user-friendly'. This
is a difficult problem and you are going to have to provide
some brain-power to fix it. CSBuild will hopefully provide the
necessary information and the tools to manipulate the
objects.

[1]

[Paul Stevens]

CSBuild (Experimental) version 0.785c is posted.
Remember......very much untested.

[Attempt number 6]

[Paul Stevens]

Oooops! I have encountered a fatal flaw in my
"Clone Buster" design. The additional layer of indirection
that allows 65000 objects also introduces the possibility
that there will synonyms for any clones. Fortunately, the
way I wrote it the damage is confined to a well-delineated
class. But it will take me a day or so to get back to where
I was.

I am beginning to dislike clones more every day.

[Attempt Number 8]

[Zyx]

Some more comments:

1) If I add more wall decorations than allowed for a level, I obtain an error.

2) When monsters are carrying object, could you add the text like "->1st object [and more...]" where "1st object" would be the name of the first object and "[and more...]" would appear if there are more objects.

3) When editing an actuator:
if I choose an object from the combo "activated by special object" then hit the browse button to choose a target, the combo is blanked.

4) I can write anything in the "position" combo.

5) When editing a missile launcher, if I enter a value above 255 for the energy, it takes only the modulo instead of a maximum value (255?)

6) The import/export portraits should only be available for a savegame.

7) Could you put a target lines toggle button on the tool bar? (this feature is really useful by the way)

8) If I put a disabled actuator and Fountain appears in the wall graphics list, it is written FOuntain

9) I tried version 785c. The clones detected only show their general class (like "disabled") and should also show their graphic name.

10 )When editing a tile, could you show the text associated to the scrolls?
Popping them is a guess game!

11) Please don't forget about editing/ading object or text on trick walls and stairs!

12) Also, as you're working on the clones, maybe you'll find a way to add a cut/copy/paste utility?

[Paul Stevens]

1), 2). 3) Carded

4) In which dialog?

5), 6), 7), 8) Carded

9) Yes...things will be getting better
someday. Once it works we can pretty it up.

10) Carded

11) Previously carded.

12) Well, hopefully someday.

Right now I have 37 3x5 cards in my 'to-do' stack.
The clones are occupying all of my time and will be
for a couple of weeks. Then I can probably start
to knock off the other problems at a couple of days
each......two months worth.

[Paul Stevens]

CSBuild (experimental) version 0.785d is posted.

I think I have recovered from the synonym disaster.

[Attempt number 6 - Double Bogey]

[beowuuf]

I'd just like to say thanks again for your continued efforts, especially since its mostly to save the people who viciously twist the poor engine from themselves!

Thank you thank you thank you


6

[Zyx]

Yes, thank you hundred of times, Paul (actually: 7 times for this post:-). I enjoy very much both your port and your editor. Your feedback is quite impressive.

Thank you thank you thank you




Errr... Still, I have some more comments....

4) In all the actuators dialogs!

13) The samurai sword appears in the lists as "Samurai Wword". Example: in the find object option.

14) In the standard DM dungeon, if I check the big switch (out) behind the very first mummy, it says: "pushbutton, operated by: alcove anything, with no effect (there is no rotate)".

15) Could you differentiate the two fine robes in the clothing lists?

16) At a level with experience multiplier=13, I put a black flame generator with a hit points multiplier of 0, and a fixed number of one creature: I obtained a monster with over 1000 hit points!
I don't understand the operators of the formula (HPM ? HPM : LEM)

17) It seems that bashable doors (with an axe and with strength of 99, expert fighter) must be wooden doors or iron grates . I can't bash Ra doors and iron doors despite of having checked the option when editing them.

18) Random decorations may appear on the sides of the door, behind the doorframe. Just mentionning it. However it may cause strange doorframes. IMHO, doors should inhibit random decorations on their sides.

19) When choosing the picture of a portrait, I can write anything in the combo. So it is possible to create a portrait with a black image.

20) I don't know why but the check "visible" for actuators doesn't stick (but the actuator will be visible in CSBwin as intended)

21) If I put an unautorized character in a text (ie: "?") and edit it again, CSBuild crashes

22) When I add a pit, its default values are not always the same. Why?

23) A shooter of predefined torches shoots only burnt out torches. Is it the way it should be?

24) In CSBwin, if I look at an antiven potion (with the eye), the text is cut.

25) I cannot add a text on a pit

[Zyx]

26) If I put a pushbutton activated by a special object, it is set by default "remove object from hand", but the check looks cleared, you have to edit it again to realize its real state.

27) Could you add a check for unused decoration types/monstertypes for each level?

28) Sometimes when I flip a coin in CSB nothing happens (neither tails or heads)

[Paul Stevens]

26) Carded
27) OK. But remember....monsters can come from other levels.
28) Carded. Hmmm. Some "Probability of Attack Success" must
have slipped into the equation somewhere. Hope it is not
wrong for all attack types.

[attempt number 3 - birdie]

[Paul Stevens]

Thanks for the reports. Needless to say, these will not
all get fixed today.

13) Carded

14) Oh, boy. Those pushbuttons an alcoves are really
complicated things. I will have to study the runtime
a bit to decide what to do here. The type of pushbutton
changes when the button is pressed!

15) Provide names for me and I will type them in.

16) Perhaps I don't understand either.
The syntax HPM?HPM:LEM means
"If the creature's HitPointMultipler is non-zero then
use that; otherwise use the LevelExperienceMultiplier.
If that does not answer the question (or problem?) then
let me know and I will investigate.

17) I will investigate.

18) Random decorations on doorframes. This sounds easy
but might be a bit of a problem to implement in the
runtime. I will look. CSBuild is easier and I can
add them as warnings. Perhaps it would be better to
do it in CSBuild because otherwise someone is sure to
write and say:

"Why can't I put random wall decorations on doorframes?
My design depends on this feature critically. Without it
I will have to abandon three years of effort."

Then I will have to put it back in.

19) Carded. Ran out of ink. Got a new pen. Blue.

20) Carded.

21) Did not happen to me. Can you provide a VERY
specific example? Some special characters are used
to shorten the encoded text. '?' means 'THE'. I try
to take out these shortcuts because we are not so
memory restricted as the old 512ST.

22) Pits have different defaults. Seems to happen
because I added code to allow you to change walls into
pits and did not make that code have the same defaults
as changing a open room into a pit. Carded.

23) Shooter-burnt torches. How do we decide what is
right?

24) Carded.

25) Carded

***** Forty-eight cards....I'm almost playing with a
full deck. No Aces. *****

[Attempt Number 7 - Triple Bogey]

[Paul Stevens]

There is great joy in Madison this evening. The Packers
won, the Cubs won, and CSBuild repaired a clone.

CSBuild can repair only one kind of clone: A teleporter
anchored at the head of a list of objects in a cell. But the
mechanisms are in place and it is just a matter of planting
the code for the other cases.

CSBuild (experimental) version 0.785e is posted.

[Attempt number 3 - A Birdie]

[Zyx]

Alright, great! Maybe the clone affair won't take the two months as you pessimisticly predicted after all!

15) well, what about something like "fine robe (bottom)" and "fine robe (up)"

18) I think it would be enough if the "put everywhere" button avoids doorframes. Manual changes don't need checks.

21) Floor text: "hello?"
then put mouse on it
CSBuild crashes with "Failure to release DC" dialogs.

23) Is there only one type of torch shooter? Or could there be more?

29) I think trick walls should be set by default to "blocking"

[Paul Stevens]

The two month estimate was for cleaning up the forty-eight
error reports that are in my stack of 3x5 cards.

I suspect that the clone buster will be in relatively good shape
in two weeks.
========================================
15) Great. "Fine Robe (bottom)" and "Fine Robe (top)"

18) Put Everywhere will avoid doorframes. Your name will
be in the code and anyone who complains will be directed
to you.

21) Hmmm. It crashes when I edit the text. I'll fix.

23) Questions I want someone else to answer, if possible.

29) Carded.

[Attempt Number 9 - A Quintuple Bogey]

[Zyx]

18) Maybe a tooltiptext on the everywhere button saying "except doorframes" would avoid bad surprises to the user?

23) I'll try to check.

[Zyx]

30) If i put a double shooter of available objects, with only one object for ammo, CSBwin crashes.

[Paul Stevens]

30) Ouch. Carded

[Attempt number 6 - Double Bogey]

[Paul Stevens]

I posted CSBuildSrc.rar, the CSBuild source, as much to
have an off-site backup as anything else.

[PicturesInTheDark]

When I tried to play Paul H's "Black flame" (converted for CSBwin use) I used the (only) teleporter in level 0 and got transported near a dragon. Ugly. Since I found no way out of this place I checked in CSBuild: there is a wooden door near the dargon (level 13 or 14 I think it was) that should be vulnerable by fire - but it held. Also, when I tried to look at the characters in level 0 I got numerous "Not implemented" messages - no crash though. Any ideas why ?

Something else: I remember a thread with teleporters on pits - but not why you did (or could) not allow them. Could you please clarify, Paul ? Also, does Lord Order always have the ability to teleport or can it be turned off ? I would need the answers for a special project, which I do not want to discuss here yet. If it was possible there might be a new dungeon in it. If possible, let me know by email and I'll give you details.

Regards, PitD

[Paul Stevens]

The games database has a 'celltype' for each cell in the
dungeon. Each cell can be only one type, because there
is room for only one small integer. So a cell can either be
a 'Pit' or a 'Teleporter' cell. It cannot be both. I suppose
the fact that a Teleporter has an associated record listed
as part of the cell's contents could be used to provide
teleportation capabilities on Pits, Walls, Stairs, or anywhere.
By the same token, if we could put Doors on Pits, Walls,
or Teleporters. We could add list objects for Pits so that
they could be put on top of Stairs. We could have a cell
that contains a Pit, a Stairs up, a Stairs down, a Teleporter,
a Wall, and a Trick Wall. Wow! We could teleport pressure-
pads and water fountains. Further changes to the
runtime engine would allow for fully animated monsters
and voice recognition for spell-casting.

But such enhancements are for the far future. I have a
dungeon with about 500 clones that needs repairs and I
have 52 - 3x5 cards, each with a bug that needs fixing or
a feature that needs implementing. If it is still important
to you in a couple of months, ask again.

As far a researching Lord Order....see answer immediately
above.

[Attempt number one - A Double Eagle]

[Gambit37]

What's all these golf references that have been appearing under people's posts?

[Zyx]

PitD: for the teleporter on a pit, it IS possible and it works under CSBwin and DM PC. But you need to clone a teleporter. CSBuild would not allow you to do the cloning, but would accept a dmuted dungeon.
You may find an example in the conflux dungeon at 7(19,03). Original teleporter is at 7(07,03).

Lord Order (opposite of Chaos, you can find one at 7(01,05) of Conflux for example) and Lord Chaos act the same: teleporting and aggressive. I think their range of teleportation is two tiles by the way.
(have the look at this same level of Conflux to see how lord orders and lord chaos are confined to their zones).

Lord Grey (the bearded, sympathetic guy who congratulates you when you complete the game): in DM PC it is immobile like a decoration. In CSBwin it acts as Lord Chaos.

Gambit: the golf references are about the number of attempts to successfully post a reply.

[Paul Stevens]

CSBuild (experimental) version 0.785f is posted.

A dungeon was sent to me for testing. I 'copied' all
the clones in this dungeon successfully. I have not
yet implemented the 'Delete' function. That is next.

Before copying the clones there were 2120 objects in
the dungeon. After making the copies there were 3053
objects in the dungeon. So my estimate of 500 cloned
objects was a bit conservative. The actual number
is 933. What a mess. God only knows how the author
is going to decide which should be there and which
should not.

There are still unimplemented pieces but I am going to
wait for someone to encounter them, complain, and send
me a dungeon that I can use to implement and test with.

[Attempt number 3 - An Birdie]

[beowuuf]

4 seemed to be par, although i got a few holes in one recently :)

Teleporters on pits will only work for monsters and objects, not party
There is nothign to stop you using a teleporter chain/pit combo to achive either teleportation or pitdropping depending on what is happening- the party is teleported to a square, if you want them pitted then a second teleporter is activated on this square to teleport them over a pit instead

2 - giggler

[Paul Stevens]

CSBuild (experimental) Version 0.785g is posted.
With this version I was able to correct all the clones
(many hundreds) by either deleting them or by making
copies of them. Both ways seem to do the right things.

I am going to leave the clone-busting aspects of CSBuild
alone for a while and go on to the other bugs and features
that are in my queue.

This is an experimental release and I hope that anyone who
uses it uses it carefully and makes lots of backups. There
are going to be a lot of 'Not Implemented' messages....report
them to me and I will fix them as soon as I am provided
with dungeons that can reproduce the problems.

One thing to notice is that when I delete clones I make no
attempt to 'garbage-collect'. Normally, a clone will be referenced
in two or more places and deleting one of the references will
not result in a Orphan. But if you delete the last reference
(which is not illegal) then what was a Clone will become an
Orphan. There is no way to rid the game of Orphans (yet).
Also, because of the fact that Clones can have Synonyms,
deleting any reference to a clone can result in an orphaned
Synonym because other references might use different names
for the same cloned object.

Orphans cause no problems until there are too many objects
in the dungeon. Right now the limit has been set arbitrarily
to 8000, I think. If you run up against this limit we can make
it bigger.

Good luck.

[Attempt 4 - Par]