Imprisoned Again - Monster Generators - Spoiler

[Paul Stevens]

I was asked this question via email and thought perhaps
there might be others who don't understand some of the
subtleties of Monster Generators.

Here is a savegame and the original dungeon of Amber's Imprisoned Again. (08,11,26) (08,11,18 ) (09,07,23) and one or more of the following flying eye generators(04,21,23) (04,19,21) (04,19,25). All of these locations are completely impassable, the monsters you kill at them the more there are.

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My reply:
OK....here is my analysis of the generator at 08(11,26).

It has a delay of about 100 seconds. Therefore it cannot
be activated more than once every 100 seconds.

It is activated by the party stepping on the pad
at 08(03,03) or 08(26,09) or 08(23,27). So every time
you step on one of those pads (assuming 100 seconds
has elapsed since the previous time you stepped on
one of them), a new activation of the generator will
be queued.

If something is already on the pad.....like a monster
previously generated...then the game will remember the
activation and try again later. Right now I see that
you have several such activations remembered for the
generator at 08(11,26). So as soon as you kill the
monster on the generator or the monster moves off the
generator, a new monster will be generated. Several
times, in fact.

I see that **MANY** generators in the dungeon have
several activations queued up in similar fashion.
What you need to do is kill the monsters without
stepping on the pressure pads that activate the
generators.

This little puzzle is similar to the Black Flame
at the entrance to the DDD area of Chaos Strikes
Back. Since the Black Flame can never move, the
generator activations get queued up until you actually
kill the Flame without crossing the Pressure Pad
that activates the Generator.

[Paul Stevens]

I missed one activating Pressure Pad at 08(12,26) which
is operated by a monster OR the party. So that makes things
more difficult because you have to kill monsters at
a rate of more than one every 100 seconds in order to
clean them out. They are self-generating as soon as they
are capable of moving about. When the area is completely
full then it would seem that they cannot move and that will
limit their number.

[PicturesInTheDark]

That would be another request for CSBuild I guess - find a way to analyze if generators are liable to produce innumerous monsters and are bound to crash a game. But that is probably a very tricky bit of code ... what do you think, Paul?

Regards, PitD

[Paul Stevens]

The code is no problem. All you have to do is tell
me precisely the algorithm you have in mind. I am
very practiced at translating.

[sucinum]

find a way to analyze if generators are liable to produce innumerous monsters and are bound to crash a game.

you can't crash imprisoned unless you really try to.

i know the generators are annoying, but the concept of the dungeon simply is to fight the monsters without retreating.
i was aware of the delay of the generators and build the dungeon around this.
btw - which is the monster-activated generator? thats at the battlefield, isn't it? afair the generated monsters can't step on the generator by themselves, so the generator serves only to fill the room completely with goblins.

[Paul Stevens]

afair the generated monsters can't step on the generator by themselves, so the generator serves only to fill the room completely

That is the effect, I believe, to fill the room. But I don't understand
your words "can't step on it themselves". Why not? Unless the
room is so full that they cannot move. And after you kill one then
they can move around and generate new monsters every 100
seconds. Am I wrong? I am not complaining about the design
of the dungeon.....I just want everyone (me included) to have a
common understanding of how these things work.

You could get through this area even if you retreat, as long
as you kill one monster party every 99 seconds. Right?

[Antman]

Maybe the problem was i was only only using one character, Amber. I would get him on full health, have all the flasks i had found with high level Vi potions, get my magic to max with a fireball ready, then assault the room. I would kill as many as possible but eventually i am forced to retreat, then i re-prepare, and do it again. I did this over and over, but if anything, the were just more monsters each time. So i pretty much gave and i was planning to remove the generators using CSBuild.

[sucinum]

You could get through this area even if you retreat, as long
as you kill one monster party every 99 seconds. Right?

the monstergenerator is outsides of the room and you can kill the activating monsters first. in the battlefield itself, you can't retreat, because you are teleported in the middle of the room. within 99 seconds, you are dead or victorious anyways
i chose goblins for that, because you can use all your poison-stuff there, so this isn't really too hard.
maybe i mixed up the generator, but thats the only monster-activated generator i can remember atm. if there is meant another, let me know
the 99 seconds aren't too sure, because the monsters are not trained to activate the pads in time, they might stand on it the whole time or next to it and simply won't move.

the only place where people _really_ complained was the matrix, which i removed in 1.4. one or two also mentioned something about having to jump down an pit *whistles*

[sucinum]

Maybe the problem was i was only only using one character, Amber.

the dungeon is not designed to be done with only one character. at all.
i wonder how far you got and how often you encountered problems where you had to remove generators. if it was only once or at least rare, i could maybe rebalance a bit to make it at least theoretically beatable solo.
i had problems with this dungeon when using 4 chars. in my own dungeon...

solo

[Antman]

I havent reached the battle field yet, the places i am stuck at are:

1. In Rasmus the Warlord, i couldntet past the rives the first time i tried it, so i tried another way, now i have come back to this way now that i can cast decent Dispell spells but there are so many worms, masses and masses of them, i killed the first few, then turned a corner, walked into the next room to see that i hadnt even touched the infestation.

2. In Valeran the Archbishop, quite far through there is a room with pits and flying eyes, lots and lots of flying eyes, this is the place i was talking about in my last post where i would sleep to max and attack untill almost dead then retreat.

I usually play with 1 character in all the dungeons i play, my chracters stats and levels are all high and he can do everything but those generator rooms.
I am also having generator problems in Conflux and 'the grave of king millias', in conflux, the place with the bashed Ra doors and oitus, the first time i was there, there was one oitu, the second, heaps and heaps of them, i was able to get past them by using warcry and running and dodging past them and luckily, the whole area wasnt full of them, yet anyway.
In the grave of king millias i am in a room with a door leading into another room, which is crammed full of hell hounds, i lured them into the first room 1 by 1, but there was just more and more, now the first room is knee deep in shanks and luckily there is is a fountain there, but no other way out, i got there by falling down a pit.
So is it my one character style that is causing me to get stuck in the three dungeons i have played? or is it because something like monsters dont activate generators in DMPC but they do in CSBWin?

[sucinum]

i suggest playing imprisoned with 4 characters first. i often play solo-adventures, but not the first time i do a dungeon. you will still get very high stats and will not have to train too much.
the fights will still be challenging and the riddles and jump+run parts are the sames (they are not really to mention in this dungeon...).
i balanced it for 4 chars (or maybe for 6 or 8 ). the faster you can press onwards, the less problems you have with generators (still enough, don't fear it will be too easy).
i didn't play conflux 2 so far, but i read that zyx has used even more generators than me. what sadist

[Gambit37]

Personally I don't like these kinds of dungeons. I do believe that challenging the player is a good thing, but it sounds like you are creating virtually impossible odds, which to me just simply isn't fun.

You have to give the player a good balance -- if they feel like they are continually overwhelmed, they will just be put off and not bother trying again. Densley populated rooms are Ok to a point -- provided there are alternatives routes and/or major benefits for surviving them.

[Zyx]

I quite agree with Gambit37. At least, it is not my playing style to face endless streams of spontaneous generations. I like Amber's dungeons but they're not my favourite precisely because of that. Of course huge masses of monsters are a kind of challenge that can be used in some cases (like for a fighter challenge). But I wouldn't want it to be the general rule, and I usually like to be offered alternative ways.

In Conflux 1, the oitu level was bad designed because I wanted the level to generate oitu at a constant rate (every 100 seconds) as long as you were on that level, thus setting a "monster pressure".
But I didn't think of a way to limit their population; and the DM engine moves the monsters from level above or below. So retreating to another level for rest will not freeze the generation.

In Conflux 2 I generally solved these problems by limiting each monster generator to a maximum of uses (generally 30) or/and by confining them to small rooms.

[beowuuf]

i think the only time i used a constant generator was in a little ghost area - the flood started when you enter the room ,and stops when you leave, but otherwise there is a constantly triggered activation every 14 (whatever units the triggers use)
I don't understand why it flooded the csb4win game for PITD, because you should be able to slay them and win freedom faster than that, due to the item you are carrying at the time...

csb is inspired for its use of a counter to set an upper limit to monster floods in areas such as KU


of course, there is an argument for having unkillable monsters and innumerable floods, to create no win situations for a party, so they have to try other methods, or learn that sometimes just because soemthign is there doesn't mean you have to try and face it...some feats are too great even for archmasters! : )

[sucinum]

In Conflux 2 I generally solved these problems by limiting each monster generator to a maximum of uses (generally 30) or/and by confining them to small rooms.

maybe that's something i should include...

[PicturesInTheDark]

Both ways have their advantages. Personally, I also dislike endless generators, and that's exactly what I would like a check in CSBuild for. Will think about the logic, Paul.

I actually had several areas while testing conflux II where I at least had the impression of an unlimited generator, but I most likely simply thought of different tactics before 30 generations of monsters were slain. Very possible. I'm not a masochist and might end up dead myself otherwise.

Regards, PitD

[sucinum]

since i'm very unexperienced in csbuild - can someone do this little change for me and set all regenerators to a maximum of 20? i think this will rebalance the dungeon even for solo-adventures but still will end up in a big massacre

[Paul Stevens]

Hey!!!! Slow down. Don't give in to such knee-jerk
reactions. Let us fix it the way you envisioned it.
I'd be happy to help if you don't mind if we throw in
some cutting-edge technology.

[Antman]

Setting the generators to 20 might be too small, my chracter killed at least 100 flying eyes but it did take a very long time and i got a whole lot of levels before i decided to stop. The rest of the dungeon is awesome as far as i have got and most of it is pretty straightfoward for my solo character. If a new update for the dungeon is released i will start again, i think i should anyway as all the scrolls in this game were deleted because i was using an older version of CSBuild.
Conflux 1 is great aswell, my solo character is already a master in all the skills, but i think i might need to start that again because there are no scrolls aswell and alot were deleted and i'm guessing i am missing out on alot of good plot. Can't wait for Conflux 2.

[sucinum]

hmm. i think i gonna start another try on it by myself and take notes where i was flooded or where i avoided it by using my map knowledge.
since i didn't play it for a while that might help.

i don't think limiting all generators would spoil the dungeon, most of them are meant to produce like 20 to 30 critters, only few rooms are meant to be flooded completely.

but there will surely come v1.5 one day, feature the newest technique of csbuild. this dungeon was planned to be hard, yes, but not to be the 5000-monsters-dungeon.
i wasn't aware how many people venture a dungeon that slowly and keep triggering the pads so often...

[Paul Stevens]

I always feel that I should be able to conquer a dungeon
without resorting to an editor. Under those circumstances
it is pretty necessary that I be able to locate the
Pressure Pads that trigger the Monster Generators. In the
case of your dungeon, I think it would be wise to provide
some pretty clear clues.....like visible pads with warnings
nearby....."Danger - Don't feed the Monsters'. Or something.
Because the Pressure Pads are relatively far away and
not easily associated with the Generators.

On the other hand, it has been my goal to build a dungeon
that cannot be solved without resorting to an editor and
will be next to impossible even with the editor. One that might
require the cooperative efforts of several people to master.
And would yield surprises for a long time after being first
mastered. There are a couple of pieces of CSB like that.
The ROS pit comes to mind. Also the Vexirk that needs to be
backed into the corner. Everyone solved those areas but
did not immediately master them.

[sucinum]

dungeon master and chaos strikes back are masterpieces of dungeons. the more you create dungeons by yourself, the more you recognize that. dm has about 1 billion riddles and little traps (count them), csb even more. they have both a very dense layout which is almost impossible to beat, having limits or not.
i never tried to compete with these two, i only wanted to make short and straight dungeons where you walk through, look left and right and have some nice fights.
i personally had not too much problems with monster flooding, but that's my playing style. i simply wanted to make all four towers challenging, no matter, in which order you solve them, so i made some pressure pads where you will generate monsters in the other towers, you have surely seen that during editing.
well, that was the design error - i assumed the player to do special things but did not prevent not to do. of course you can't know what a player does in a dungeon and you can't punish hin for behaviour you didn't except from him.
so next to 2 or 3 generators which are intended for flooding, all of them have to be limited. it's quite funny to face an overwhelming horde - once or twice, but not all the time. imprisoned again was not meant to be a massacre, it was meant as a theme park with some challenging fights.

to be honest, i was never too firm with all this technical stuff in dm, i only followed some manuals step by step and never feared to ask stupid questions (ian's forum was full of them, the first few dozens i asked being named simply "guest").
but i don't think i will be able to manage the technical details i would need to rebalance and to bugfix the dungeons with csbuild.
so enough of my technophobia and on to my question:
can someone else do this techical stuff?
i can give almost complete freedom in redesigning parts, only some details i want to keep. we can talk here or via pm about these details, if anyone (or more than one) is willing to help me and i'm glad about any suggestion.
i am sorry that i have to do this, but i prefer a well balanced dungeon to one i did completely alone. the dungeon counts, not my name on it. i feel that some people liked it very much (which makes me very proud), even though it's a bit buggy, so i think, it's worth the effort. with a better balancing, even more people could like it

[PicturesInTheDark]

As Paul said, clear specifications would be needed because it would be a shame changing your style of dungeon creating accidentally. I'm on if you want me to, though I cannot provide help with complex mechanisms, I'm lacking experience there. Limiting generators to a certain number should be fine though. If you have some patience (I may not be able to work on it daily, but once or twice a week should be fine) I'd gladly help you. Let me know. First thing I would need is a list of what you want to have changed.

Regards, PitD

[Paul Stevens]

Go slowly. I know it is difficult to be patient. If I understand
correctly, what you wanted will not be exactly satisfied by
a limit on the number of activations. It was more like:

If the player retreats then make sure that there is at least
one (two, three?) monster in his path the next time he goes
forward.
.

There really is no convenient way to do this
right now. But we could make a way and the result might
be useful to others. In this case it seems like what is needed
is a way to define some sort of 'Zone' and to count the
number of particular objects in a zone.

As I said, I am willing to help implement your ideas if you
can express them in words. Sometimes ideas are hard
to communicate in words. And it requires patience. But
good things are worth waiting for.

[sucinum]

patience
for example, there is a generator in the worms level in DM, which creates worms in your back. why has noone ever flooded the worms level in dm? is the generator triggered only in rare occasions or is there something special about it?
what would happen if the regeneration limit would be increased, from 100 seconds to, let's say 300. are the activations stacked? so if i repeatedly trigger a pad in a different tower, would there be created a monster each 300 seconds and the level was flooded anyways, only later? if yes, is it possible to let the pad only work each 300 seconds, so the activations are not stacked?
i think, some of the pads could be changed to work only once, that would be something to start with (that's mostly the cross-tower pads).
next are the flood-pads. i could include several pads only working once to limit that, but then the number of the monsters would finite. some of the pads are simply meant to work each time. for example the matrix (in older versions) would work quite perfectly if the was a knight-limit of about 5. that's a number one can handle, but would provide that you have to cross the matrix with the knights in it, as it was meant to, but not with hordes of them, as it ended and not empty, what would happed if the pad was finite.
generators are evil - can't do without and can't do with

[Paul Stevens]

The Monster Generator Timeout works like this:
When the Generator receives an activation message......
1) We create a monster. If the celll is already
occupied then the monster is put into a queue to be tried
again later.
2a)The Monster generator is removed from the cell and put
into a timer message. The Monster Generator is no longer
there. No more monsters can be generated. Any messages
that arrive are ignored and discarded (well...other Actuators
that might be in the same cell still process the message).
2b)The Monster generator is put into a Timer with a timout
value as specified by the designer in the Generator dialog.
When that time expires, the Monster Geenerator is put back
into the cell from which it was removed. Now messages that
arrive will again cause monsters to be generated.

So....You can see that the activations are not stacked. Only
the generated monsters can be stacked. Activations that
arrive during the timeout period are discarded.

I think the worms do not flood the area because the Pressure
Pad is not activated by Monsters. But I have not actually gone
and looked at it. I don't know of any Monster Generators in
DM that are triggered by Monsters. There are several in CSB.
I think the Worm area in the bottom level can flood. And maybe
the Dragon area in the bottom level, too.

As a designer, what I think you should do is get a clear picture
in your mind of WHAT you want, not HOW to do it. Trying to
think on two levels of the problem (when neither is clear in your
mind) causes great confusion and bad solutions. First you must
consoidate the plan.....write it down......then worry about the
execution. I can help with the execution but only if the needs
are clearly stated. And there are many others reading this list
who will be invaluable when it comes to translating a need into
an action.

[PicturesInTheDark]

Yes Paul, I can see that the realization might be a problem because how to define the zone in which monsters get created? If you have a monster generator that creates 1-4 monsters, is triggered by monsters as well and has a timeout of, say 300 seconds, then it depends a lot on if we are speaking about a confined zone, a whole level or an open area and how many others monsters are roaming the area. BTW: Can immaterial monsters trigger a pressure plate? (Because I think they should not be able to, same as vexirks if they are floating above pits!). Will think about if I can find some clear wording for a solution.

Regards, PitD

[beowuuf]

Only water elementals can trigger items/fall down pits

[Simon]

Only water elementals can trigger items/fall down pits

Are you sure? I seem to remember a post on the previous website where someone said any monster could 'fall' down a pit, it was actually just level design that teleported monsters on grates away. I never actually found out if that were true or not.


As for monsters generating monsters, if I remember correctly, didn't the spider trap on DM with the boots of speed in have monster generators that generated monsters? I seem to remember that you could never kill them all without somehow freeze boxing them otherwise they would respawn...

[beowuuf]

the creature still needs to be able to trigger the teleporter to fall or drain...so water elementals can trigger things, whereas faders, etc cannot

apart from vexirks, normal monstres can trigger generators