Who doesn't want this?...
Yeah, it would be too hard. New additions would be:
New monster AI (most difficult);
Town shops and money box, gems and coins as currency;
Ability to place multiple terrain types and transitions;
Weather changes outside;
Cryochambers instead of mirrors (not too difficult, right?);
New monsters;
New items;
Dungeon goes UP instead of DOWN (probably not a problem);
Etc.
You CAN still use the DM2 gfx, but I bet an undertaking like this would require a whole new program to avoid any difficulties of mixing advanced DM2 stuff with others. Heck, I don't care if someone makes a non-RTC DM2 clone, but RTC is VERY cool.
DM2 Clone, please!
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cowsmanaut
- Moo Master
- Posts: 4380
- Joined: Fri Jun 30, 2000 12:53 am
- Location: canada
ok the only things that actually need to be done is weather, Monster AI and Shops. everything else on your list is already possible with RTC. However you did for get the Minion spells. oh and I seem to remember something about some spells actually missing from DM2 as well. At least in the amiga version.. perhaps that was just the map spells
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linflas
- My other avatar is gay
- Posts: 2445
- Joined: Tue Nov 04, 2003 9:58 pm
- Location: Lille, France
- Contact:
and you forgot weapons in both hands 
with weather, monsterAI and shops, and the number of levels actually allowed by RTC, this could be possible to make a whole world like ishar or some might and magic episode.
hmmm should add something more... i make a new post about it.
edit : finally not necessary.. i was thinking about stairs with a "go-to-level" value but i can do that with a "fake stairs" flooritem and a teleporter.
with weather, monsterAI and shops, and the number of levels actually allowed by RTC, this could be possible to make a whole world like ishar or some might and magic episode.
hmmm should add something more... i make a new post about it.
edit : finally not necessary.. i was thinking about stairs with a "go-to-level" value but i can do that with a "fake stairs" flooritem and a teleporter.
Oh, yeah. Also:
Minimaps with embedded spell buttons;
Animated items (ex. Fury when equipped, torch when equipped, all tech stuff when equipped, potions when in inventory (!!! Way better than DM1 potions!)
DM2 was missing magic footsteps, thief's eye, poison potion, and zokathra. But it is best without these.
RTC already has multiple terrain with transitions? Like going from forest to cave to castle to void?
Minimaps with embedded spell buttons;
Animated items (ex. Fury when equipped, torch when equipped, all tech stuff when equipped, potions when in inventory (!!! Way better than DM1 potions!)
DM2 was missing magic footsteps, thief's eye, poison potion, and zokathra. But it is best without these.
RTC already has multiple terrain with transitions? Like going from forest to cave to castle to void?
For weather, can you fake it with the following:
every outdoor tile
a) has a dry, getting soaked, soaked and drying off graphic, only the dry turned on
b) an initially invisible animated graphic, like the teleporter, but with a rain look
c) damage tile and lightning flash graphic
there is a slow counter triggering a low percentage activation trigger. If it trips, then it goes on to a sub-set of actuators.
One part flips every floor tile to the 'damp', and switches on the 'rain' graphic. A new counter counts and triggers a tries to trigger a bigger percentage trigger.
When this trips, the next set of triggers fli pthe floor graphics 'wet' ground. Also, it starts targetting frequently a low probibility set of triggers that will switch on and off a damage tile /lighting graphic tile set .
The next counter set, again targetting a medium probably set of triggers, which will swithc off the rain graphic, toggle the floor to 'drying' and doens't target the lightning. A final timer coutners, then resets the whole system again.
If you see what i mean
Soudsn liek alot of hassle, but i think the mechanics involved with otherwise generating dm2 weather through the engine wiould be harder.
Since you can have alha-numeric labels, then all graphic/damage/trigger items can have the same rough format with corresponding numbers at the end for each outdoor tile.
Sorry, sounded less complex in my head...
every outdoor tile
a) has a dry, getting soaked, soaked and drying off graphic, only the dry turned on
b) an initially invisible animated graphic, like the teleporter, but with a rain look
c) damage tile and lightning flash graphic
there is a slow counter triggering a low percentage activation trigger. If it trips, then it goes on to a sub-set of actuators.
One part flips every floor tile to the 'damp', and switches on the 'rain' graphic. A new counter counts and triggers a tries to trigger a bigger percentage trigger.
When this trips, the next set of triggers fli pthe floor graphics 'wet' ground. Also, it starts targetting frequently a low probibility set of triggers that will switch on and off a damage tile /lighting graphic tile set .
The next counter set, again targetting a medium probably set of triggers, which will swithc off the rain graphic, toggle the floor to 'drying' and doens't target the lightning. A final timer coutners, then resets the whole system again.
If you see what i mean
Soudsn liek alot of hassle, but i think the mechanics involved with otherwise generating dm2 weather through the engine wiould be harder.
Since you can have alha-numeric labels, then all graphic/damage/trigger items can have the same rough format with corresponding numbers at the end for each outdoor tile.
Sorry, sounded less complex in my head...
But do items in RTC have different .bmps when they are equipped? Oh, probably. Torches, duh. DMJava is too DM1-ish to make a DM2 clone. And I don't know anything about Java programming.
A better idea would be to make a new program that uses the DM2 data files and runs them under Win2000 and XP. A port would just save so much time. And someone needs to create a nice dungeon editor that is as user-friendly as DMJava or RTC, only for DM2/
A better idea would be to make a new program that uses the DM2 data files and runs them under Win2000 and XP. A port would just save so much time. And someone needs to create a nice dungeon editor that is as user-friendly as DMJava or RTC, only for DM2/
No one has yet decoded the .dat file, let alone made a programme with such features as AI, etc! So while it would be nice, looking at how long George has taken to made a clone from scratch, or Paul has taken to try a 'simple' port of atari DM, i imagine even if someone tried it now then we could all be off doign other thigns by then anyway! : )
That's why it's probably best to see if the current crop, especially RTC, can do as much as would make it a fun version of DM2, or better yet DM2 like good points without the sucky bits
That's why it's probably best to see if the current crop, especially RTC, can do as much as would make it a fun version of DM2, or better yet DM2 like good points without the sucky bits
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kentaro-k.21
- Artisan
- Posts: 178
- Joined: Wed Dec 17, 2003 1:39 am
- Location: Osaka, Japan
- Contact:
hi.
i'm not good at having generic chat talk, just talking about DM2 specific info (about dungeon.dat/graphics.dat) i researched.
i think it is better to know how DM2 realizes some new features to discuss next improvement point of RTC.
following talk is about i know and i guess. i have quoted the headline from purple1's post.
you can trade items with money, or vice versa.
shop panel is presented as a wall ornate. it is associated with shop panel floor actuator. you can check the overview of actuator @ http://members.at.infoseek.co.jp/danmas ... _A.htm#3FW
that actuator has an attribute (some actuator uses it as 'delay' value) to select list of merchandices.
number of merchandices themselves are placed at a floor. there are about 40 items (including same type of item) per shop.
shopkeeper picks it up on demand.
about moneybox.
money box seems to be implemented as a chest.
actually, the money box holds some coin/gem items. there is a money box in the torham's home in dungeon.dat. you can check it with tool DMDC2.
in any time, DM2 uses only SINGLE terrain type set AT A TIME.
however, for example, if you are in front of shop entrance, you can see the inside shop. that image is a prerendered sprite image displayed by floor ornate. it is in graphics.dat, you can check the fixed sprite image attached at floor ornate section with DM2GDED.
you can see creatures over there a gate (shop entrance, keep entrance, wooden gate, ...).
it is presented by combination of cross scene actuator and teleporter.
that actuator projects the destination of teleporter.
if it is rain, you often see falling thunderbolt around you. the thunderbolt is a missle (e.g. fireball is a kind of missle). that missile immediately explodes at the falling point and wound you if you touch it.
minion is represented as a creature record in dungeon.dat. its basic behavior is like other enemy such as glop. but minion, generated by you, doesn't attack you, and glop attacks you.
also your minion doesn't attack other your minion. this trick is easy. there is an entry to represent its creature's enemy in each creature class.
it is represented as a set of creatures, such as "C0 C2 C9 C13-16 C18 C23 C27-33 C35 C38 C42-43 C55-56 C65-66 C69 C72 C74 C76 C78 C82 C84 C87". (e.g. C0 is thorn daemon, C2 is vortex, and so on).
how each minion map minion remember the target location.
i've posted a overview on my page @ http://members.at.infoseek.co.jp/danmas ... index.html
they are defined as creatures. there is an actuator to make the creature animate once.
about clan key hole at keep entrance hall.
you need 4 keys to open.
realized with some actuators.
if you push the key, key is set.
the item watcher actuator takes a clan key from you if you push.
and coexsiting item watcher actuator actives ornate step animator actuator. if activated, ornate step animator displays next image (clan key hole is a wall ornate). wall ornate of clan key hole has 5 images (0, 1, 2, 3, 4 keys set image).
how about minion transform.
overview is already discussed @ http://www.dungeon-master.com/forum/vie ... 0673#30673
this is a technique of creature generator in DM2.
creature generator has an attribute for a point #.
if creature (specific minion) is generated, it finds point # and go there.
the point is defined as text record (3rd table in item db).
text record is also used to place another type of creature generator/message board/window/laddar/mineral/plant and so on.
i guess that text record is used instead of actuator because actuator table almost runs out. in PC version, there are 1019 actuator records.
text record has only 1 nibble.
sturct TEXT_RECORD {
WORD link;
WORD nibble1;
};
to make minion destination point, 2 text records are used.
first 1 is to define creature type after transform.
nibble1 binary format is: 00001?NNNNNNN010
NNNNNNN is creature #.
next 1 is to define point #.
nibble1 binary format is: ????NNNN?????100
NNNN is point #.
there is no method (actuator and so on) to navigate the minion to the transform point. minion automatically finds transform point and decides the path to reach there.
if you have question about above, plz post it. i'll check as possible as i can and answer it.
i'm not good at having generic chat talk, just talking about DM2 specific info (about dungeon.dat/graphics.dat) i researched.
i think it is better to know how DM2 realizes some new features to discuss next improvement point of RTC.
following talk is about i know and i guess. i have quoted the headline from purple1's post.
about shop.Town shops and money box, gems and coins as currency
you can trade items with money, or vice versa.
shop panel is presented as a wall ornate. it is associated with shop panel floor actuator. you can check the overview of actuator @ http://members.at.infoseek.co.jp/danmas ... _A.htm#3FW
that actuator has an attribute (some actuator uses it as 'delay' value) to select list of merchandices.
number of merchandices themselves are placed at a floor. there are about 40 items (including same type of item) per shop.
shopkeeper picks it up on demand.
about moneybox.
money box seems to be implemented as a chest.
actually, the money box holds some coin/gem items. there is a money box in the torham's home in dungeon.dat. you can check it with tool DMDC2.
in graphics.dat, you can see the wall/floor image set in dungeon graphics section.Ability to place multiple terrain types and transitions
in any time, DM2 uses only SINGLE terrain type set AT A TIME.
however, for example, if you are in front of shop entrance, you can see the inside shop. that image is a prerendered sprite image displayed by floor ornate. it is in graphics.dat, you can check the fixed sprite image attached at floor ornate section with DM2GDED.
you can see creatures over there a gate (shop entrance, keep entrance, wooden gate, ...).
it is presented by combination of cross scene actuator and teleporter.
that actuator projects the destination of teleporter.
about thunderbolt.Weather changes outside
if it is rain, you often see falling thunderbolt around you. the thunderbolt is a missle (e.g. fireball is a kind of missle). that missile immediately explodes at the falling point and wound you if you touch it.
about minion.New monsters
minion is represented as a creature record in dungeon.dat. its basic behavior is like other enemy such as glop. but minion, generated by you, doesn't attack you, and glop attacks you.
also your minion doesn't attack other your minion. this trick is easy. there is an entry to represent its creature's enemy in each creature class.
it is represented as a set of creatures, such as "C0 C2 C9 C13-16 C18 C23 C27-33 C35 C38 C42-43 C55-56 C65-66 C69 C72 C74 C76 C78 C82 C84 C87". (e.g. C0 is thorn daemon, C2 is vortex, and so on).
about minion map.New items
how each minion map minion remember the target location.
i've posted a overview on my page @ http://members.at.infoseek.co.jp/danmas ... index.html
animation of boiler/steam engine.Etc
they are defined as creatures. there is an actuator to make the creature animate once.
about clan key hole at keep entrance hall.
you need 4 keys to open.
realized with some actuators.
if you push the key, key is set.
the item watcher actuator takes a clan key from you if you push.
and coexsiting item watcher actuator actives ornate step animator actuator. if activated, ornate step animator displays next image (clan key hole is a wall ornate). wall ornate of clan key hole has 5 images (0, 1, 2, 3, 4 keys set image).
how about minion transform.
overview is already discussed @ http://www.dungeon-master.com/forum/vie ... 0673#30673
this is a technique of creature generator in DM2.
creature generator has an attribute for a point #.
if creature (specific minion) is generated, it finds point # and go there.
the point is defined as text record (3rd table in item db).
text record is also used to place another type of creature generator/message board/window/laddar/mineral/plant and so on.
i guess that text record is used instead of actuator because actuator table almost runs out. in PC version, there are 1019 actuator records.
text record has only 1 nibble.
sturct TEXT_RECORD {
WORD link;
WORD nibble1;
};
to make minion destination point, 2 text records are used.
first 1 is to define creature type after transform.
nibble1 binary format is: 00001?NNNNNNN010
NNNNNNN is creature #.
next 1 is to define point #.
nibble1 binary format is: ????NNNN?????100
NNNN is point #.
there is no method (actuator and so on) to navigate the minion to the transform point. minion automatically finds transform point and decides the path to reach there.
if you have question about above, plz post it. i'll check as possible as i can and answer it.
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The Journeyman
- Craftsman
- Posts: 137
- Joined: Mon Nov 08, 2004 11:55 pm
- Location: Hall of Champions
That's great stuff, Kentaro! 
i especially like the shop having a pile of stuff hidden in a non visible area..one question though..if the player sells like a hundred bats from his hunting time in the caves, do they also land on the item pile, cause i can imagine that would interefere with the maximum number of allowed items in the dungeon.
Someone else had a problem of disappearing steaks, cause he used to put them on the floor of the general shop area (--->this thread).
to multiple terrain types:
i especially like the shop having a pile of stuff hidden in a non visible area..one question though..if the player sells like a hundred bats from his hunting time in the caves, do they also land on the item pile, cause i can imagine that would interefere with the maximum number of allowed items in the dungeon.
Someone else had a problem of disappearing steaks, cause he used to put them on the floor of the general shop area (--->this thread).
to multiple terrain types:
this even works for projectiles, as one can throw fireballs through those entrances and there are the crazy axemen, that like to throw things at you, while you are still outside their clan territory, so that's why i thought at 1st the tiles in a map had an additional attribute about what wall set to use in specific area.kentaro-k.21 wrote:you can see creatures over there a gate (shop entrance, keep entrance, wooden gate, ...).
it is presented by combination of cross scene actuator and teleporter.
that actuator projects the destination of teleporter.
I'm gonna sleep in the rat room.
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kentaro-k.21
- Artisan
- Posts: 178
- Joined: Wed Dec 17, 2003 1:39 am
- Location: Osaka, Japan
- Contact:
yes. sold items are teleported at the pile immediately.do they also land on the item pile, cause i can imagine that would interefere with the maximum number of allowed items in the dungeon.
if you sell bats, merchant places the item at the floor next to trade table. and there is an actuator on the floor. if merchant (or anyone) place any item there, the item is teleported to the pile location. so, you can buy the sold bats as you sold (or other sold items).
also it is true about limitation. acoording to comment by beowuuf, there may be 'permenant' flag on item record. if item is not blessed with the permanent flag, wolves or thief may take them to their base and hide it permanently :) (it is possible that game collects the non-permanent items at a floor and releases them, if # of items hits the limit of maximum number)
and the side effect of teleporter actuator is interesting for me. i guess that it also charges/discharges magic power of the sold items (while teleporting). this kind of actuator is also found at fountain. i didn't know this until i checked by editor: if you put bota/jug into fountain, it is filled with water. if you put torch, the fire is extinguished. their differences (charge/discharge) are clearly distinguished, by editor, as attribute of actuator. in the PC version, at the shop, the actuator's attribute seems to be 'charging', so if you sell any chargeable items, the items should be fully charged.
yea... it is well done so that we cannot feel the side effects without loading time for terrain transition.this even works for projectiles
yes. it is amazing thing. :)there are the crazy axemen, that like to throw things at you, while you are still outside their clan territory,