5DMaze

Post by **Paul Stevens** » Sun Apr 24, 2005 7:16 pm

I wanted to see how difficult a puzzle I could create
with standard pressure pads and trick walls.
One constraint is that it had to be very small.

The result is at:
http://dianneandpaul.net/CSBwin/Games/5dmaze.zip

What is the fewest number of moves to pick up
the coin. An editor is included and you are welcome
to use it.

beowuuf · Post by **beowuuf** » Wed Apr 27, 2005 1:18 am

This dungeon seems deceptively simple...I checked in the editor, and it's deceptively small....so I guess it's going to be a nightmare to do! *runs back to Conflux*

ADDF_Toxic · Post by **ADDF_Toxic** » Fri Apr 29, 2005 3:43 am

Would this be running through DM or CSB in CSBwin b/c it has both.
thx
cya

beowuuf · Post by **beowuuf** » Mon May 02, 2005 8:37 pm

It is self-excecuting, it has the CSBwin.exe file in the folder ready to go

ADDF_Toxic · Post by **ADDF_Toxic** » Tue May 03, 2005 2:31 am

Je ne comprehend pas:
I don't understand!
CSBWin has CSB and DM to run. I'm saying it has both.

Post by **Paul Stevens** » Tue May 03, 2005 4:11 am

SBWin has CSB and DM to run. I'm saying it has both

And I'm saying it has many more!

ADDF_Toxic · Post by **ADDF_Toxic** » Tue May 03, 2005 2:54 pm

Is there a difference between pressing "DMAtari-ST" and "CSBAtari-St"? CSB comes with both. I tried it with CSB and got farther than DM, but I didn't save it. The point is, is there a diference in the way is behaves!?

Post by **Paul Stevens** » Tue May 03, 2005 4:59 pm

If you look into the batch files you will see that they
use exactly the same executable. The only difference
is in the dungeon.dat/mini.dat/graphic.dat files. So the
only difference is the game you select to play.

It is like a text editor. The same text editor can be used to
edit a letter to your grandmother or to edit a grocery list.
The same CSBwin.exe is used to play several different games.
Including 5DMaze (an attempt to be on-topic).

ADDF_Toxic · Post by **ADDF_Toxic** » Wed May 04, 2005 3:46 am

Yes, you change the dungeon.dat. I don't know how somehow I never got so far when I clicked DM though. Just thought somehow it made a difference. I am loosing knowledge about computers. I got really used to DOS for Dungeon Master. Now it's confusing.
But before this gets too off topic, see yah!

PicturesInTheDark · Post by **PicturesInTheDark** » Thu Dec 15, 2005 1:35 pm

That was actually what lured me back for more... a new puzzle by Paul Stevens. I took a purely theoretical approach with the help of some sheets and crude drawings and would have had a nice and pretty "quick" solution-or so I thought.

I assumed the functionality of the pads operating the blocking walls would be the same-that was a nasty surprise and makes this a LOT more complicated. I assumed that it wouldn't just be straight from what I knew so far, but was not prepared for this.

So, since I'd like to try some more from the start, could someone (Paul?) please explain the functional difference between "clear", "set" and "toggle" so that this does not end as a wild goose chase?

Thanks,
PITD

PicturesInTheDark · Post by **PicturesInTheDark** » Thu Dec 15, 2005 1:54 pm

Ok, back for more. Scanning some of the documentation available for actuators, i found this: "An Action. Set, Clear, or Toggle. When the target receives the message it decides what 'Set', 'Clear', and 'Toggle' mean." [...]

"A common example....a Pressure Pad that 'Holds' a door open so long as a Boulder is on the pad. When the Boulder is placed on the Pressure Pad the pad is 'activated' and it sends a 'Set' message to open the Door. When the Boulder is removed the Pressure Pad is deactivated and sends a 'Clear' message to close the Door.
4. A flag to reverse the operation. In the preceeding example, setting this flag would cause the Boulder to 'Hold' the door closed rather than open. In other words it causes a 'Clear' to be sent instead of a 'Set' and vise versa."

Based on this, am I correct in assuming that in the case of the 5D maze GENERALLY "set" means "activate blocking wall", clear means "de-activate blocking wall" and "toggle" means "change state of (blocking)wall" with the limitation that "set" and "clear" will produce no effect since once the "party" steps from the pad again, the "set"/"clear" action will stop?

-> That would mean, only pads that "toggle" trick walls would be relevant for the solution. (I am already a little afraid of the answer

)

Regards, PITD

ADDF_Toxic · Post by **ADDF_Toxic** » Thu Dec 15, 2005 3:16 pm

It's been a while since I've played around with DM, but from what I remember, Set means Open. But I am not quite sure. It's a bit confusing when another program I use has it different than CSBuild.

Post by **Paul Stevens** » Thu Dec 15, 2005 6:49 pm

Here is how some objects interpret these messages:

Code: Select all

           door       pit      trick wall     DSA
set       open       open      open          whatever
clear     close      close     close         whatever
toggle    change     change    change        whatever

Where 'change' means to "open, if closed" or
to "close, if open".

And 'whatever' means the the person who designs
the DSA can decide to do whatever s/he pleases.

As I recall, in the 5DMaze a message is always sent
when the party steps onto the pad. The message
can be any one of 'Set', 'Clear', or 'Toggle'.

Post by **Paul Stevens** » Thu Dec 15, 2005 6:58 pm

Pressure Pad that 'Holds' a door open so long as a Boulder is on the pad

I'll keep this separate because it is not related and is
a very important subject.

A Pressure Pad cannot 'hold' a door open as long as
a Boulder is on it. A Pressure pad sends 'Set', 'Clear',
and 'Toggle' messages. That is all and it is that simple.
What happens (as you can see in the CSBuild editor
and is not misleading like the word 'hold') is that the
Pressure pad sends one message (Set or Clear)when
the Boulder is placed on the pad and the opposite
message when the Boulder is removed. But it cannot
'Hold the door open". The Party could come along and
close it. Another Pressure Pad operated by a Giggler
could close it. Etc., etc., etc. Then, when the Boulder
was removed, a Clear message would be sent to the
door and it would be ignored because the door is already
closed.

This paradigm of simple messages, with delays,
interpreted by the objects that receive the messages
is the great genius of the game.

PicturesInTheDark · Post by **PicturesInTheDark** » Fri Dec 16, 2005 11:00 am

Thank you, that answers/confirms one part of my questions, I'll be more specific about the second part.

Am I correct in assuming that since the pressure pads in the 5D maze are operated by the party stepping onto them, "set" and "clear" messages will only have any effect on the trick walls "operated" if their current state is other than the result of the message sent?

Follow-up: If the answer was yes, my conclusion would be that only "toggle" actions will (long enough for the party to make use of the result) change (open/close) the state of the trick walls.

Regards, PITD

Post by **Paul Stevens** » Fri Dec 16, 2005 3:46 pm

I don't understad your question. But let me
lay out each and every possibility. When the
party steps on a pad a message is sent. When
the message arrives at its destination, the wall
(in this case) is in a particular state and may,
as a result of the message, open or close.
Here are the possibilities:

Code: Select all

                    Message Type
                           Set        Clear      Toggle
current state=open    stay Open   close          close
current state=closed  open        stay closed    open

So I don't understand why you would think that only
toggle messages would have an effect. A Clear message
will close a wall. A Set message will open a wall.

If you replace the words 'Set', 'Clear', and 'Toggle' with
the words 'Open', 'Close', and 'Change' perhaps it would
be more clear.

PicturesInTheDark · Post by **PicturesInTheDark** » Sat Dec 17, 2005 2:07 pm

The "stay open" and "stay closed" possibilities are the problem since originally I (wrongly) assumed all pressure pads would simply toggle.