[fixed for V0.36] Various inaccuracies about CSB

Trantor · Post by **Trantor** » Mon Mar 20, 2006 11:58 am

First of all, the worms in the starting room can enter the forcefields. It's rather irritating when the worms can escape through the field and you have to wait until they get out again. This message is edited, so more later.

George Gilbert · Post by **George Gilbert** » Mon Mar 20, 2006 12:23 pm

True, but interestingly i've just had a look at the original CSB dungeon.dat file and they don't stop worms either (only items / party)!

Do you think they should be changed in RTC?

Trantor · Post by **Trantor** » Mon Mar 20, 2006 1:12 pm

Oh, they can't as well? Interesting! Since it never happened to me before, I just assumed they couldn't do that in the original. In that case, leave it as it is; I'd prefer if the forcefields were monster-proof as well, but I think it is best to stick as close to the original as possible, even in the bad parts.

It's only a very minor thing anyway.

Trantor · Post by **Trantor** » Mon Mar 20, 2006 1:51 pm

Sorry for double posting, but I think having one thread about various CSB stuff is better than having a thread for each little thing I can find.

-Supplies for the quick:
I visited this place at the very beginning of the game (as I usually do) and found a Topaz Key and the Dragon Plate there. I don't know how exactly the thing with the teleporting gigglers works in the original, but I know that the items are not there at the very beginning of the game.

-Deth Knights in ROS Level 8:
In the original, if you send them down two pits to the secret area with the respawning worms, the Knights are dead - not so in RTC. I feel this killing method is quite an integral part of the Way of the Ninja. Rather than beating opponents through brute force, the Ninja lures the opponents into a deadly trap that requires preparation (opening the pit in level 9 as well). I think the HP of the Knights should be reduced so they won't survive the fall.

Post by **linflas** » Mon Mar 20, 2006 1:55 pm

as you've probably seen, there's a difference in monsters AI which means a different probability for them to reach some places or not : it seems that in RTC monsters are more "expansive" because they can ungroup... and in your case, they reach the fields areas faster than in CSB.

George Gilbert · Post by **George Gilbert** » Mon Mar 20, 2006 3:33 pm

Trantor wrote:Sorry for double posting, but I think having one thread about various CSB stuff is better than having a thread for each little thing I can find. ;)

That's fine; keep them coming!

Trantor wrote:-Supplies for the quick:
I visited this place at the very beginning of the game (as I usually do) and found a Topaz Key and the Dragon Plate there. I don't know how exactly the thing with the teleporting gigglers works in the original, but I know that the items are not there at the very beginning of the game.

This is just part of the "random-ness" of the CSB dungeon. I've had a look at the original CSB dungeon.dat and the RTC version and they both use the same method of putting objects in random places throughout the dungeon. It looks like you were just lucky to get the armour that early!

For your interest, there's a room that the party can't get to with loads of gigglers, teleporters and triggers in it. The gigglers each carry different items and it's random as to which order the gigglers step on triggers / teleporters and therefore where they (and their items) end up in the dungeon.

Trantor wrote:-Deth Knights in ROS Level 8:
In the original, if you send them down two pits to the secret area with the respawning worms, the Knights are dead - not so in RTC. I feel this killing method is quite an integral part of the Way of the Ninja. Rather than beating opponents through brute force, the Ninja lures the opponents into a deadly trap that requires preparation (opening the pit in level 9 as well). I think the HP of the Knights should be reduced so they won't survive the fall.

This is an interesting call between a "bug" and a "feature" in the original game. As I'm sure you're aware, DM and CSB were limited to having a maximum number of types of creature on a level; if any new creature was added (like the knights falling down to the basement) it would instantly die to enable the engine to cope.

RTC doesn't have this limitation and can have any number of creature types (or any other type of object) on a level. As you've observed, although the knights take alot of damage from falling, its not enough to kill them outright.

Normally, I would say that RTC is doing the right thing and leave it as it is, but your argument about it being the ROS level is compelling! I'll add a damager at the bottom of the pit to kill any knights that land there.

Trantor · Post by **Trantor** » Mon Mar 20, 2006 3:41 pm

George Gilbert wrote:This is an interesting call between a "bug" and a "feature" in the original game. As I'm sure you're aware, DM and CSB were limited to having a maximum number of types of creature on a level; if any new creature was added (like the knights falling down to the basement) it would instantly die to enable the engine to cope.

RTC doesn't have this limitation and can have any number of creature types (or any other type of object) on a level. As you've observed, although the knights take alot of damage from falling, its not enough to kill them outright.

Normally, I would say that RTC is doing the right thing and leave it as it is, but your argument about it being the ROS level is compelling! I'll add a damager at the bottom of the pit to kill any knights that land there.

Ah, that's interesting! I always thought that the Knights died because of taking too much damage. I knew about the monster limitations in DM and CSB, but wasn't aware that monsters die instantly if they were "transported" to a level where they had no right to exist. I think that making sure the Knights die after the long fall is a very good idea, thanks for that!

George Gilbert · Post by **George Gilbert** » Mon Mar 20, 2006 4:32 pm

Yes, in the original CSB the knights don't die because of the fall, they die because of the number of monsters per level has been exceeded!

Post by **Paul Stevens** » Mon Mar 20, 2006 4:46 pm

they die because of the number of monsters per level

I don't think that those words EXACTLY descibe what
happens. I think:

They die because Knights are not allowed on that level.

Not because the 'Number of monsters' is too large. Rather
this particular type of monster is not allowed. This is
neither a 'feature' nor a 'bug' IMHO. It is simply the
way the runtime engine was designed. Each level has a list
of allowed monster types. Only Gigglers, Worms, and Dragons
are allowed on the bottom level.

And this fact is used routinely to kill monsters. Like teleporting
Gigglers with their belongings to random places.

Post by **linflas** » Mon Mar 20, 2006 5:19 pm

that's the EXACT reason why you find 2 armours and 2 cursed swords on the lower level

Post by **Sophia** » Mon Mar 20, 2006 8:37 pm

I created something like this pit drop in SS, and as a solution, at the bottom of the pit, I had a trigger that was OPBY the relevant monster type, that quickly clicked a damager on and off.

Maybe something like this could be added to the CSB dungeon.

George Gilbert · Post by **George Gilbert** » Mon Mar 20, 2006 9:25 pm

That's exactly what I've added (and is already used in other places in the CSB dungeon where changing levels requires a monster to die to get a dungeon mechanic to work)...

Trantor · Post by **Trantor** » Wed Mar 22, 2006 12:53 pm

-Question about Hints:
Are the hints "dynamic"? I just killed Mongor at level 10 of KU and took a look at the Hint Oracle. It didn't tell me anything about Mongor. It also didn't list Dragons and Gigglers as monsters on level 10, but did list Deth Knights! I assume this is because of the Knights from ROS that I sent down the pits, right?

EDIT:
Just checked with an older savegame and realized that the hints truly are dynamic! Very nice feature!

George Gilbert · Post by **George Gilbert** » Wed Mar 22, 2006 1:15 pm

Yes, the RTC hint oracle for monsters displays hints for the monsters that are present on the same level as the party (as opposed to the DM one which displays hints for monsters that are allowed on that level).

In fact, RTC dungeons can be configured to only display hints for monsters within a certain radius of the party (not just on the same level) and the radius can be different for each monster.

beowuuf · Post by **beowuuf** » Wed Mar 22, 2006 5:42 pm

Actually, none of the random item dropping is supposed to happen until you reach the junction of th ways. In the case of the gigglers, this happens because the monsters don't start moving until you visit that level. so I still think Trantor's argument is correct - you shoulnd't find those random items until you revisit the supplies for the quick, and so maybe if you can introduce another set of teleporters that block the gigglers until you reach the JotW?

George Gilbert · Post by **George Gilbert** » Wed Mar 22, 2006 7:31 pm

Good idea - now done for V0.36

Trantor · Post by **Trantor** » Thu Mar 23, 2006 8:54 pm

-More trouble with falling monsters:
Some monsters (a rock pile and a demon) managed to fall down from the DDD into the little cave under it that hosts the large dragon. I can only suppose they went on the pit that is operated by the plate at the "Fighter charge" inscription, and then some monster left the plate so they fell down. Anyway, I think they should die as well as those Knights on ROS. First, the fight against the dragon there is already tough enough, and second, having other monsters there as well sort of takes the specialty out of the fight. In my book, at least.

Trantor · Post by **Trantor** » Tue Mar 28, 2006 1:39 pm

-Dragon Den:
The door that leads to the Dragon Den can't be destroyed, neither with Fireballs nor with Weapons. Though I tend to agree this is actually better than in the original, it is still a diversion (hey, Linflas called me a purist, and he is probably right

).