Recently started re-reading the Lone Wolf gamebook series (aaaaah, memories... if there had been sites around when I first looked on the net I probably never would have found Dm sites instead you know)
Aaaaaaaanyway, reading the forums and notes accompanying the rules and seeing the interpretations got me to thinking about gamebook rules, so I started developing my own.
One of my famous first draft passes, they are probably too complex for a gamebook. If anyone has any comments, or can get any use out of any of the ideas, feel free to read it and use them (will never get round to making a gamebook with them, I have no doubt)
http://www.dmjump.net/charrules.doc
http://www.dmjump.net/comrules.doc
http://www.dmjump.net/gamingsheet.ppt
I have equipment rules too I am working out (well, I've got them, just need to tidy them up and add a bit)
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Tom Hatfield
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I like everything about it except the random life/magic. I don't care for random anything where character development is concerned, because a little luck one way or the other can offset the game's fairness. You'd expect luck to have a part in skill/combat rolls, but even then I think the luck factor should be minimized. This is exactly why I can't stand D&D or any system (now d20) based on D&D.
Otherwise, it's interesting.
Otherwise, it's interesting.
Thanks very much!
See, i prefer there is some chance to flavour a charatcer and player play - hopefully the bias of adding 6 and semi-chosen body score offset the luck factor alot...but it will still mean a 'weak' character has the chance to be strong (you aren't punished for being 'spiritual' or 'worldly') and a 'strong' charatcer doesn't automatically get to be a godly tank striding around... so you could play the same character stats but be allowed to be more aggressive or need to be more cautious from game to game
Similarly to magic - your two core attributes that are semi-chosen outstrip your random factor, but it still allows you to experiment more one game with magic, or need to be conservative the next...again, a dedicated 'tank' can have another side to them, and 'thinker' doesn't necessarily mean 'mage'
Hence dice rolls for the core scores - allowing a little luck, but not making a high score automatically throw the game in your favour...it just gives you generally better stats than low scores, and a little more flexibility in charatcer creation (and also I think in the game I might punish too high a score in certain situations...already too large a body score makes you cumbersome, too large a heart score would make you like ace rimmer say - sure, very noble and brave but maybe a little annoying sometimes... similarly too much soul and you may be vulnerable to superstition or psychic/magical attack.
See, i prefer there is some chance to flavour a charatcer and player play - hopefully the bias of adding 6 and semi-chosen body score offset the luck factor alot...but it will still mean a 'weak' character has the chance to be strong (you aren't punished for being 'spiritual' or 'worldly') and a 'strong' charatcer doesn't automatically get to be a godly tank striding around... so you could play the same character stats but be allowed to be more aggressive or need to be more cautious from game to game
Similarly to magic - your two core attributes that are semi-chosen outstrip your random factor, but it still allows you to experiment more one game with magic, or need to be conservative the next...again, a dedicated 'tank' can have another side to them, and 'thinker' doesn't necessarily mean 'mage'
Hence dice rolls for the core scores - allowing a little luck, but not making a high score automatically throw the game in your favour...it just gives you generally better stats than low scores, and a little more flexibility in charatcer creation (and also I think in the game I might punish too high a score in certain situations...already too large a body score makes you cumbersome, too large a heart score would make you like ace rimmer say - sure, very noble and brave but maybe a little annoying sometimes... similarly too much soul and you may be vulnerable to superstition or psychic/magical attack.
/now it would work.. strange , must have sth. to do with your site being in UK or sht. and me being in /germany??
anyway, thanks for emailing me the .doc!
._.
Now to the critique:
as far as i can tell , it should work as a system and it's nicely done, for
it is quick to read (not bulky) and 4 main stats (soul , body , mind and heart ) is a good idea.
I have missed some sample caracthers (<--omg this spelling means characters), let's say a fighter type (knight or just a fighter) and a thief like character and of course a mage or sth.. Just to flesh it out a bit more, and as a guidance. Then you could pick just the fighter and go adventuring when you feel like it. Yeah, I have not yet tested to create a char, so maybe (most likely) it is fast and sample chars do not have that much sense.. but nevertheless they would be nice, as addition to the last part of the .doc.
when does come an adventure?
I don't get the soul stat..
quote:a measure of your ability to look outwith yourself and the physical limitations of the world./quote
???
2. What means exhersion? do you mean exhaustion?
quotoe: Strength will help determine heavy weapon blows or feats of exhersion.
well. that's it for now..cool that you share
anyway, thanks for emailing me the .doc!
._.
Now to the critique:
as far as i can tell , it should work as a system and it's nicely done, for
it is quick to read (not bulky) and 4 main stats (soul , body , mind and heart ) is a good idea.
I have missed some sample caracthers (<--omg this spelling means characters), let's say a fighter type (knight or just a fighter) and a thief like character and of course a mage or sth.. Just to flesh it out a bit more, and as a guidance. Then you could pick just the fighter and go adventuring when you feel like it. Yeah, I have not yet tested to create a char, so maybe (most likely) it is fast and sample chars do not have that much sense.. but nevertheless they would be nice, as addition to the last part of the .doc.
when does come an adventure?
I don't get the soul stat..
quote:a measure of your ability to look outwith yourself and the physical limitations of the world./quote
???
2. What means exhersion? do you mean exhaustion?
quotoe: Strength will help determine heavy weapon blows or feats of exhersion.
well. that's it for now..cool that you share
Sorry, the rules deliberately DON'T inflict a charatcer class on you...you pick your stats, play how you want (would be the plan) and if this makes you a fighter, so be it, if this makes you amge, so be it...but really you will jsut be an adventurer who is better or worse at stuff, and who may rely on their relfexes and 'ninja' like abilities more, or magic more, or be an all rounder. The simple rules tell you how to generate a jack of all trades if you want to play fast.
I can't tell you how to make, for example, a mage, as I wouldn't then make a mage choice versus a fighter choice in the game
*cough* about the game...I just thought of a set of rules. I did yesterday think of a vague dea for story, but relaly it was just a thought experiment for a set of rules so far, and if someone else could use thm, so much the better!
the soul stat - it's a catch all for essentially being spititual, worldly, and concerned with things other than yourself - the opposite of heart, which is all about your courage and feelings about yourself.
Exhertion is strainign yourself and using up energy...so moving a boulder in Dm and draining charatcer stamina is an exhertion : )
I can't tell you how to make, for example, a mage, as I wouldn't then make a mage choice versus a fighter choice in the game
*cough* about the game...I just thought of a set of rules. I did yesterday think of a vague dea for story, but relaly it was just a thought experiment for a set of rules so far, and if someone else could use thm, so much the better!
the soul stat - it's a catch all for essentially being spititual, worldly, and concerned with things other than yourself - the opposite of heart, which is all about your courage and feelings about yourself.
Exhertion is strainign yourself and using up energy...so moving a boulder in Dm and draining charatcer stamina is an exhertion : )
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Tom Hatfield
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Exactly, just like DM. Anyone can be anything, it's just that some people are better at a particular class than others. That's exactly the kind of slanted but non-arbitrary versatility I like, and one of the reasons DM is so badness.
Off topic here, but Dungeon Siege II failed in my eyes because it forced you to specialize, unlike its predecessor, which was more like DM.
The way you describe Soul makes sense. It's like Freud's superego, as opposed to ego, which is what Heart sounds like. It also implies an interesting dynamic that isn't readily seen just by reading the rules. Every person is selfish to some degree, and selfless to another. This is part of the survival trait, and it's what makes us individuals.
Going off-topic again. Sorry. And the correct spelling is "exertion."
Off topic here, but Dungeon Siege II failed in my eyes because it forced you to specialize, unlike its predecessor, which was more like DM.
The way you describe Soul makes sense. It's like Freud's superego, as opposed to ego, which is what Heart sounds like. It also implies an interesting dynamic that isn't readily seen just by reading the rules. Every person is selfish to some degree, and selfless to another. This is part of the survival trait, and it's what makes us individuals.
Going off-topic again. Sorry. And the correct spelling is "exertion."
@zoom: Equpiment list, no, except for a weapons list. There are rules for equpiment, they are maybe too complex and are more to do with how you use/carry items in the background of the book (So you chose if you have a sword drawn as you walk along, for example, becuase there is a provision when you can draw a weapon around combat and certain people might inderstandably react differently if you are armed when you run into them)
In combat weapons boils down to what damage you can do, what defense you an get, and whether you check against your reflexes or strength to inflict each type of damage
As Tom gets, there is no profitiency - any charatcer can pick up a sword, as a sword just is a set of statistics - but a charatcer with low reflexes won't be good against an armoured opponent unless he has high strength to simply bash away,and a strong charatcer doens't necessarily make a better fighter than+ a lightly armed person in their reflexes let them down
You will find that your core attributes are used as bonuses in combat - so a bulky charatcer (your basic tank ) with high strength might be good bludgeoning in combat, whereas someone with with good reflexes and mind is good for darting around defenses
But then someone with a good heart score and reflexes might be needed to overcome the fear and speed of a vampire, or perhaps strength and mind to overcome a strong opponent that outclasses you - so really a 'fighter' won't be able to stand up in all situations, and just because you are intelligent or worldy enough to figure out how to use a magic wand doens't pin you into a mage category - as
you can also figure out alot of complex fighter equipment
Again, it comes back to what I said to tom too -there is enough random element that a 'mage' or 'thief' or 'ninja' can still have a good set of Life points to last well in a fight, and a 'fighter' or 'barbarian' or 'knight' can get a good magic score to interact qith magical equpment
At least that was my hopes - glad you didn't find the rules so far too much - really the combat and equpment rules are the ones I worry about more for a simple gamebook! Will try to upload them soon!
@Tom: Yeah, I am surprised no one has thought of using the core attributes like that before, in that arrangement, as it seems quite a classic dynamic in some regards - as you say, the balance of heart/soul does represent exactly what you say (althouh by the nature of it being game mechanics, does seem to say you can't be spiritual and wordly and brave to any degree! Then again, i'd like to think if you know what's out there you are likely to have prejudices and superstitions that coour your reactions and make you more cautious, so really you need a little bit of ignorance to have towering confidence in your abilities!
In combat weapons boils down to what damage you can do, what defense you an get, and whether you check against your reflexes or strength to inflict each type of damage
As Tom gets, there is no profitiency - any charatcer can pick up a sword, as a sword just is a set of statistics - but a charatcer with low reflexes won't be good against an armoured opponent unless he has high strength to simply bash away,and a strong charatcer doens't necessarily make a better fighter than+ a lightly armed person in their reflexes let them down
You will find that your core attributes are used as bonuses in combat - so a bulky charatcer (your basic tank ) with high strength might be good bludgeoning in combat, whereas someone with with good reflexes and mind is good for darting around defenses
But then someone with a good heart score and reflexes might be needed to overcome the fear and speed of a vampire, or perhaps strength and mind to overcome a strong opponent that outclasses you - so really a 'fighter' won't be able to stand up in all situations, and just because you are intelligent or worldy enough to figure out how to use a magic wand doens't pin you into a mage category - as
you can also figure out alot of complex fighter equipment
Again, it comes back to what I said to tom too -there is enough random element that a 'mage' or 'thief' or 'ninja' can still have a good set of Life points to last well in a fight, and a 'fighter' or 'barbarian' or 'knight' can get a good magic score to interact qith magical equpment
At least that was my hopes - glad you didn't find the rules so far too much - really the combat and equpment rules are the ones I worry about more for a simple gamebook! Will try to upload them soon!
@Tom: Yeah, I am surprised no one has thought of using the core attributes like that before, in that arrangement, as it seems quite a classic dynamic in some regards - as you say, the balance of heart/soul does represent exactly what you say (althouh by the nature of it being game mechanics, does seem to say you can't be spiritual and wordly and brave to any degree! Then again, i'd like to think if you know what's out there you are likely to have prejudices and superstitions that coour your reactions and make you more cautious, so really you need a little bit of ignorance to have towering confidence in your abilities!
Umm, when i was in secondary school I tried a more conventional gamebook, kinda combinign lone wolf and FF rules, so the strength relfexes and a third attribute came from that, btu the whole heart.body etc and the actual working of the attributes i only put my mind to on friday and fleshed out while thinkign about it on saturday - given how it's felshed out so quickly in an unusual way surprised me actually...so wonderign if there is somehting i've been influenced by...
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Tom Hatfield
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Yeah, that spelling is atrocious, but I'm loving the idea. Beo, if it's okay with you, I'd like to use your core attributes in my own project. Here's what I've written down:
____________________
Core attributes. Thanks to some input from a colleague on the Dungeon Master forums, I have four core attributes that define every character. I'm going to copy exactly what he wrote, as his words describe them best.
Body – a measure of your physical stature, health and resources.
Mind – a measure of the keenness of your intellect and quick wittedness
Heart – a measure of your sense of self worth, your courage and determination.
Soul – a measure of your ability to look outwith yourself and the physical limitations of the world.
No Captain Power jokes, please. I think these will work very well. I know Soul is worded rather strangely, so you can think of it as one's recognition of the patterns that shape reality, closeness to God or whatever power(s) you worship, and ultimately one's magical aptitude.
Body determines base health and affects endurance; Heart determines base endurance and affects willpower; Soul determines base willpower and affects health.
Mind determines the effectiveness of several focus-oriented skills and powers (including ranged accuracy, dodge, and craft), as well as determining how many spells a weaver may have active.
If I had to associate each core attribute to a particular class, I might do so as follows: Body = warrior; Heart = hunter; Mind = craftsman; Soul = weaver. In truth, they're not so cut-and-dried. Every attribute will benefit every character to a large degree.
____________________
I justify the effect Soul has on health by my observation that people of faith tend to lead healthier, happier lives than those of us without. Anyway, I needed an offset to the triangle.
____________________
Core attributes. Thanks to some input from a colleague on the Dungeon Master forums, I have four core attributes that define every character. I'm going to copy exactly what he wrote, as his words describe them best.
Body – a measure of your physical stature, health and resources.
Mind – a measure of the keenness of your intellect and quick wittedness
Heart – a measure of your sense of self worth, your courage and determination.
Soul – a measure of your ability to look outwith yourself and the physical limitations of the world.
No Captain Power jokes, please. I think these will work very well. I know Soul is worded rather strangely, so you can think of it as one's recognition of the patterns that shape reality, closeness to God or whatever power(s) you worship, and ultimately one's magical aptitude.
Body determines base health and affects endurance; Heart determines base endurance and affects willpower; Soul determines base willpower and affects health.
Mind determines the effectiveness of several focus-oriented skills and powers (including ranged accuracy, dodge, and craft), as well as determining how many spells a weaver may have active.
If I had to associate each core attribute to a particular class, I might do so as follows: Body = warrior; Heart = hunter; Mind = craftsman; Soul = weaver. In truth, they're not so cut-and-dried. Every attribute will benefit every character to a large degree.
____________________
I justify the effect Soul has on health by my observation that people of faith tend to lead healthier, happier lives than those of us without. Anyway, I needed an offset to the triangle.
Was distracted earlier - just wanted to say I personally think of soul not really as spiritual full stop, more just looking outwith yourself and what you know....
So soul will alot of the time be the basis of charatcer perception of you, simply because someone who is interested in you or not introvert usually seems to be more charismatic or attrative...although of course someone with complete self conviction (at the other side of the scale) is similarly attractive at times!
I like trying to make odd yet interesting connections - for example a large body and soul score, perhaps suggests someone connected to the physical realities of the world - they would enjoy what they do as a profession, and be able to link it intimately with the world around them - enjoying being a warrior and caring about the effect their actions have, helping the less powerful, for example
So soul will alot of the time be the basis of charatcer perception of you, simply because someone who is interested in you or not introvert usually seems to be more charismatic or attrative...although of course someone with complete self conviction (at the other side of the scale) is similarly attractive at times!
I like trying to make odd yet interesting connections - for example a large body and soul score, perhaps suggests someone connected to the physical realities of the world - they would enjoy what they do as a profession, and be able to link it intimately with the world around them - enjoying being a warrior and caring about the effect their actions have, helping the less powerful, for example
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Tom Hatfield
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I'm a little confused. So you're saying Heart and Soul might better be described as "Self" and "World"? In which case I sort of got it backward. I would personally consider Heart to be selflessness and an interest in worldly manifestations, with Soul representing introspection and an understanding of self — which, on a side note, does in fact help us understand others. You'll have to tell me what you think of that.
Well, either way, I think it's a neat system. I'll reconsider the purpose of each stat and what it means to me. It's not like this is written in stone.
Well, either way, I think it's a neat system. I'll reconsider the purpose of each stat and what it means to me. It's not like this is written in stone.
Yeah, I did it the other way around.
I wasn't denying the inital connotations, merely sayign there were others. So soul is about spiritualness, sensitivity to the world around you, etc - but then further extrapolating that leads to the term 'selfless' - in being aware of and conscious of the greater whole, of your place in the world, you are more likely to be interested and open to others, other experiences, etc - perhaps more 'alive'
Herat, i feel, was courage, conviction, passion...basically things that only spring from a deep sense of self (not necessarily knowledge of self, just belief - if you have ignorance and don't question your abilities it would lead to the arrogance to have strong will and think you can overcome all situations ...hence why soul and heart scores balance. If you are introspective and understand others and your place in the world, etc you perhaps cannot muster that same conviction that you must know what is right, that you can overcome everything, that there are not forces greater than you.
So for example a knight may have a large 'heart' value showing bravery, a mage or priest a large 'soul' score being wordly - neither would be particularly cowardly, and both would wish to help the helpless. But one would believe in their own abilities and strengths to provide the aid (say standing against a demon of hell), while the other is more likely to petition forces supernatural or spiritual to help the situation from without.
Anyway, hopefulyl the four and their relationship can be open and flexible enough for interpretation while firm enough not to be fuzzy and confusing - so you carry on with how you are setting it up, as you say it's not written in stone and is personal for how you want to use it. Sounds like you have good ideas for it!
Oh, also the idea would be that not everyone is covered by this balance of four - but sicne you are playign a 'lowly' adventuerer, then you have wiggle room in the average and that is what the stats and rules are defining. On average, you could be intelligent or strong, but not really both, or arrogant or spiritual, but not both - or esle you would probably be a notable charatcer and this gamebook wouldn't be about you helping some random village, it would be about you leading an army of solders in your empire ; )
I wasn't denying the inital connotations, merely sayign there were others. So soul is about spiritualness, sensitivity to the world around you, etc - but then further extrapolating that leads to the term 'selfless' - in being aware of and conscious of the greater whole, of your place in the world, you are more likely to be interested and open to others, other experiences, etc - perhaps more 'alive'
Herat, i feel, was courage, conviction, passion...basically things that only spring from a deep sense of self (not necessarily knowledge of self, just belief - if you have ignorance and don't question your abilities it would lead to the arrogance to have strong will and think you can overcome all situations ...hence why soul and heart scores balance. If you are introspective and understand others and your place in the world, etc you perhaps cannot muster that same conviction that you must know what is right, that you can overcome everything, that there are not forces greater than you.
So for example a knight may have a large 'heart' value showing bravery, a mage or priest a large 'soul' score being wordly - neither would be particularly cowardly, and both would wish to help the helpless. But one would believe in their own abilities and strengths to provide the aid (say standing against a demon of hell), while the other is more likely to petition forces supernatural or spiritual to help the situation from without.
Anyway, hopefulyl the four and their relationship can be open and flexible enough for interpretation while firm enough not to be fuzzy and confusing - so you carry on with how you are setting it up, as you say it's not written in stone and is personal for how you want to use it. Sounds like you have good ideas for it!
Oh, also the idea would be that not everyone is covered by this balance of four - but sicne you are playign a 'lowly' adventuerer, then you have wiggle room in the average and that is what the stats and rules are defining. On average, you could be intelligent or strong, but not really both, or arrogant or spiritual, but not both - or esle you would probably be a notable charatcer and this gamebook wouldn't be about you helping some random village, it would be about you leading an army of solders in your empire ; )
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Tom Hatfield
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Ah, that makes a lot more sense now.
As for your last remark, characters typically start out lowly but balanced, and develop greater "heroic" power as they progress through their lives. That's what roleplaying is all about, after all, so it stands to reason. There's also the notion that some people spend their lives seeking balance, in both worldly and spiritual aspects of life. Perhaps the offset character scores represent a sort of imbalance — despite the fact that they are numerical balanced, this forces a character to improve himself in other ways if he wants to survive.
As for your last remark, characters typically start out lowly but balanced, and develop greater "heroic" power as they progress through their lives. That's what roleplaying is all about, after all, so it stands to reason. There's also the notion that some people spend their lives seeking balance, in both worldly and spiritual aspects of life. Perhaps the offset character scores represent a sort of imbalance — despite the fact that they are numerical balanced, this forces a character to improve himself in other ways if he wants to survive.
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Tom Hatfield
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I've started a depot for personal notes based on Beo's original idea. You can take a look here if you want. It's a living work-in-progress and should never be considered final, even though the chart says "Final." At this stage I'm updating it two or three times a day. That'll dwindle when I get bored with it.
Some time ago, I wrote a scriptable game engine for IF with a GUI interface based loosely on SPECIAL (FALLOUT) rules. I've since put in on hold because I wanted to make it linux compatible and need to write a portable GUI first (and even that is on the back burner...).
If there is enough interest, It shouldn't be too difficult to convert the engine to a format based on the rules you're working out here.
Interest will have to be in the form of volunteers for beta testing and authors for writing game-book modules. The authors would have to learn a simple scripting language.
'k
If there is enough interest, It shouldn't be too difficult to convert the engine to a format based on the rules you're working out here.
Interest will have to be in the form of volunteers for beta testing and authors for writing game-book modules. The authors would have to learn a simple scripting language.
'k
