HI all, New Dungeon Crawler (DMJava)

GandolfA · Post by **GandolfA** » Sun Jan 21, 2007 6:25 am

Hey everyone im new to this program however i am obssessed with dungeon crawlers and making them, Dungeon Hack is still one of my all time fav crawlers. But anyway Im currently creating a new Dungeon Crawler in DMJ and hope to create a very hard, yet fun game. The dungeon crawler will be based off my table top roll playing game i created and will have finished and copyrighted hopefully by end of year.
I plan on having several things added to dungeon crawler and hope for input from everyone what they like, dont like, advice, or would see in the game. Also if you would like to help just let me know

Currently all i have is:
- Able to buy equipment from a shop
- Elaborate Puzzle set up
- First Floor DOne

ian_scho · Post by **ian_scho** » Sun Jan 21, 2007 10:04 am

It's usually a good idea to get someone else to test it for you before you 'release' it. As far as I can tell Beowuuf is the expert tester around here, poor guy. I'd be happy to test it for you (it'll take a while though, and I dont like the difficulty set too high as I'm a winp with a low patience quotient).

I intend to test my own effort, should it ever get finished, 3 times myself before asking someone else to look at it.

GandolfA · Post by **GandolfA** » Sun Jan 21, 2007 10:15 am

Ah, after i get few dungeon floors done ill post it for beta test if anyone wants to do it

Thanx ian_scho. Anyone else have any other suggestions?

beowuuf · Post by **beowuuf** » Sun Jan 21, 2007 10:54 am

Sorry, haven't been a serious tester of dungeons in quite a while, apart from occassional exceptions, and I'm afraid my DMJ package doesn't even work anymore

But yes, its sometimes good to have at least one fresh pair of eyes test it for you, so that your dungeon isn't sppilt while you iron out the kinks - there's nothign worse than having to play the same start five times or whatever if you are just wanting to play for fun - you tend to give up after that!

Can I suggest watch your floor lay-out, and keep it tight. What looks like an interesting set of shapes in the editor, that you know the twists and turns intimately, can become a bvoring nightmare of trudging and wall testing to the player

Think of how long the worm level felt, yet its quite compact in it's corrdor lengths and turns and considering how soon new rooms open up.

Also, low hp monsters with interesting abilities, or in odd circumstances that force unique fighting methods are always preferable to just hackign away in a two square dance with a high hp monster. For alot of veterans the high hp monster isnt' a a challenge, just boring to have to spend tme beating, and lots can put you off playing through an area.

Also, the quirky fight will spot those who train and can blow through tough hp monsters from blowing through your tough fights

ian_scho · Post by **ian_scho** » Sun Jan 21, 2007 12:20 pm

We need an über thread somewhere in the forum titled 'What makes a good dungeon'.

GandolfA · Post by **GandolfA** » Sun Jan 21, 2007 12:54 pm

Ah thanx guys

Ill keep those tips in mind making a dungeon.

GandolfA · Post by **GandolfA** » Sun Jan 21, 2007 1:03 pm

I have dungeon setup you start with one character and as you travel through dungeon you encounter other players through events, and have option to do some minor talking and have them join if you want. Few people will have to have a quest done to get.
I also have quite a few puzzles in mind ranging from riddle puzzles, pressure plates, teleport puzzles, as well as "Clever traps" i hope, but trying to keep them down to a minamal.

I do like the mirror thing getting a party, but i thought be a little neater if you encountered other people traveling (i.e eye of beholder series). Also there are shops every so many levels.

Any suggestions or comments? Any mistakes you see i might be making or does it look good anyone is welcome to post, i want to get as much feedback to keep game alive and enjoyable for everyone

Oh has anyone had any problems with game locking up, can still go into inventory but movement, picking up stuff, attack,etc has been disabled, seems to happen only on rare occassions.

beowuuf · Post by **beowuuf** » Sun Jan 21, 2007 4:40 pm

There wa, but it keeps getting pushed down and new ones pringing up

Look for a discussion starrted by sucinum, possile on the DM forum or maybe i he custom (though i don't remember seeing it)

About charatcers as you go along - all very well but balance them well - alot of poeple train, and other people are just darn good, and by the time you pick up a new champion throug hthe dungeon what you have is dead weight compared to your uber heroes! : )

Another important thing - don't punish the player for saving ontop of their previous save game. Don't have a riddle that you needed to have the object for that is now not accessable, try to make sure within reason players can't destroy or lose key items that they will need later, and if a trap is strung, make it escapeable or fatal, don't ahve someone walking aroudn for half an hour not realising they are now the walking dead!

Not sure about the game lock up you destribe gandoly, i seem to recall it being discussed on the ezboarfd forums actually...

ian_scho · Post by **ian_scho** » Sun Jan 21, 2007 7:52 pm

I've seen the 'lockup' problem numerous times. To reproduce create a new switch, I think by default it's 'reusable' and the target is set to itself. Create another switch to point to the original one. Now when you flick the second one in the dungeon it will initiate an infinite loop in our first switch.

EZBoard for DMJava. Very quiet

Also had problems with the 'Exchange' method with the switches...

Finally, could you experiment to see if you can 'replace' characters in DMJava? By that I mean choose 4 champions and then get teh option of having another champion join your team. Never tried it.

GandolfA · Post by **GandolfA** » Sun Jan 21, 2007 9:05 pm

Ah thanx beowuuf ill make sure players are not dead weight

I will keep in mind to make sure item cant be destroyed for quest/riddle, as well as if trap is sprung that ur not walking around unable to escape for an hour.
Ian_schoo well i do use alot of exchange switches with the shop, as well as numerous other things. Thanx guys for your advice anyone else have any advice, i know more than just ian and beowuuf post

Currently im making test "town" and experimenting with several switches/triggers to see what i can do with it.

Another big thing i was thinking about is making game with low stat based monsters, character, items. So battles, traps,etc so game is more challenging and easier to balance. Or do u think regular or higher stats are better for a rpg and lower stats makes it to hard? Any suggestions, s i want to try and get as many people involved in this to make a very good game

Oh i wont be back on till tomorrow morning have lots of errands to run today then work =( so leave lots of suggestions and comments please guys

anything is helpful.

beowuuf · Post by **beowuuf** » Sun Jan 21, 2007 9:48 pm

Actually, if you look at Zed5duke's post I beleive he also had a take on ideas for games - you could possibly read that thread too for ideas.

Low stats and little abilities make it harder - some people dont' like it, I personally like having to earn all these thigns to start with, it makes for a nice challenge and it just feels so great the first time you can cast a certain spell, realise you can stay in combat with a monster - each stat and ability gained matters again, and lesser methods of play or spells/items can get to be useful while you wait forthe favourites

ian_scho · Post by **ian_scho** » Sun Jan 21, 2007 10:23 pm

The forum is generally full of suggestions, some of it specific to the game engine.
I've not tried reducing the stats of the champions, nor the monsters. Too low and they'll be swinging in air all of the time I suppose. One of the criticisms I recall beowuuf saying about DMJava is that it takes the champions longer to level up (I think I got that right), so I wont be worrying about changing the basic stats.
More suggestions? I've downloaded and played other dungeons and looked at how things are done there. Steal other peoples ideas, change it a little to fit in with your own story and make it your own.

beowuuf · Post by **beowuuf** » Sun Jan 21, 2007 10:51 pm

Yes, not only does leveling up take longer, but you are punished more for poison damage, and also for having redued stamina (you don't have to lose it all before taking damage) 0 for this reason it would be best to ensure a low level party is able to deal with the threats by a variety of means - people with a tough strong party can attack it head on, others cancircumvent it somehow!

GandolfA · Post by **GandolfA** » Mon Jan 22, 2007 1:30 pm

Thanx for poison and Stamina heads up, ill tinker with that, i dont want the party to have to rest every 2 steps or die from stamina loss

Im pretty sure going to go with low stats, beowuuf is right, it does feel great to earn everything and show off that you did it. I'll try playing other peoples games as well for ideas, but i got several things lined up.
I hope after i get few levels done i can get other people to get into it and post suggestions as well

thanx you 2 for your help and advice while i work on this

Currently working on:

-Shuffling Wall Trap
- Timed/Moving Pit Trap
- Town
-Item, stat, monster, tweaking

Oh anyone know any good sites to get character pics and/or event pics, i search alot on dogpile and google, but any good sites just let me know thanx

ian_scho · Post by **ian_scho** » Mon Jan 22, 2007 1:43 pm

You could try a WAD extractor for games like Heretic and Hexen, Doom...
Eye of the Beholder monsters from I, II I've got, if you want them.
There's Ishar and Lands of Lore, then... ohhh I bet a couple of other users have got Megs of files like this.

I wonder what the best search phrase would be to search on Google Images.

GandolfA · Post by **GandolfA** » Tue Jan 23, 2007 1:21 am

Well got first level done and i did a run through it found several bugs that need fixed, funniest one was somehow the boss of level somehow got out of room he was in and decided to wreak some ownage on me, was kinda funny. Just walking then fireballs started flying at me lol =)
Just few trap tweaks and after boss fixed shall be on to 2nd level

ian_scho · Post by **ian_scho** » Tue Jan 23, 2007 8:07 am

It takes a while to create a dungeon, doesnt it?

As you've probably already worked out there is a 'block monsters' thigy that prevents them from leaving an area, for both material and non-material beings.

I've actually not used this very much though, and what I do is create a silent invisible pressure pad which activates a monster generator instead. That way I can control WHEN they arrive and don't really care if they wander about afterwards should our champions miss them. I do it by 'zones' so that when the champions enter a new section one pressure plate can activate up to 15 or so generators. It wont work if you want a monster to carry some special item though, as generator create the 'default' monster.

GandolfA · Post by **GandolfA** » Tue Jan 23, 2007 1:52 pm

Very nice info ian_scho that will help alot in making map

I been tinkering wtih generator a little bit, is pretty neat indeed. It is alot of work to do. Today im converting everything to low #s and testing them out to try and create a balance between everything. Created fun little shuffling wall puzzle ^___^ I do wish could make a shop as good as dungeon master 2 =(. Can u use jpeg files for textures or does the editor only support gif files.

ian_scho · Post by **ian_scho** » Tue Jan 23, 2007 3:54 pm

For the wall textures only the one format for the moment.... Although Kelly is probably working at changing this as I write. His latest update is going to be for only png format files, for a better end user experience.

GandolfA · Post by **GandolfA** » Wed Jan 24, 2007 3:52 am

Ah thanx ian_scho. Anyway doing stats for monsters, heros, items,etc is there a way to change how much points you get for a level up and/or able to set starting amount points you get when u create character (default is 30 appears) or is built perm in editor? Also is mana cost for spells able to be changed?

ian_scho · Post by **ian_scho** » Wed Jan 24, 2007 8:10 am

I believe these values are hard coded in DMJava..... Can you read Java, it's not rocket science? The source code for windows is available from the website.

Post by **linflas** » Wed Jan 24, 2007 10:27 am

sorry to interfere in this post but why releasing it on DMJ ?
most of people here (including me) would be very happy to play your dungeon but installing DMJ package (and making it work fine) is really a pain !...

George Gilbert · Post by **George Gilbert** » Wed Jan 24, 2007 10:50 am

Linflas wrote:sorry to interfere in this post but why releasing it on DMJ ?
most of people here (including me) would be very happy to play your dungeon but installing DMJ package (and making it work fine) is really a pain !...

GandolfA wrote:I do wish could make a shop as good as dungeon master 2 =(.

As with Linflas, it's not really my place to pry, but if you used RTC then you'd get for free lots of the things that you've been asking for here (DM-II style shops, support for wide variety of image formats, high resolution graphics, easy to install and run, lots of people to test it etc etc)...

ian_scho · Post by **ian_scho** » Wed Jan 24, 2007 10:55 am

Don't know about 'interfering', Linflas, your suggestions are always welcome.

Installing the Java runtime and then configuring the subsequent shortcut to point to the correct class file / working directory is indeed the biggest drawback to DMJava.

beowuuf · Post by **beowuuf** » Wed Jan 24, 2007 1:03 pm

Actually, Germanny's site does give all the links and tips on how to get the game running and the correct environment to download

And hey, RTC would have been dead if everyone said had had their sway with 'oh, why are you trying to build a dungeon on RTC when CSBwin is so much more flexable with its scripting' back in version 0.33.

Kelly is adding tweaks and there is nothing wrong with the engine! Leave people alone to design on what they want to design on!

ian_scho · Post by **ian_scho** » Wed Jan 24, 2007 1:15 pm

I think it's great that people are pointing out the functionality of other engines, when someone comments ("I'd like a shop as in DMII"). If its going to be an important part of their dungeon, then you have to seriously think about changing engine (or recoding it, eh Kelly).

The thing is, shopping was never my strong point

As Bewuuf mentioned earlier, it's the feeling of being overwhelmed by worms ("I'll be back!") which I would like to replicate. Those sort of tricks and experiences are great and can be achieved in a wireframe dungeon I wreckon. Of the custom dugeons available that I'd like to play the most is Conflux and Sukumvit - two different engines.

GandolfA · Post by **GandolfA** » Wed Jan 24, 2007 1:33 pm

Hmm thanx for advice everyone, ill look into code and see what i can do ^__^, thanx ian_scho. i tried using other editors and i just seem to take a shine to dm java the most. but ill look at the other engines again might have not given enough time on them. but thanx for telling me lil about each editor. I do like kelly's addons and stuff thats being done to java =)

Kelly · Post by **Kelly** » Wed Jan 24, 2007 9:28 pm

Hey. Just reading through the posts here, so I'd thought I'll add a few notes.
The "locking up" you mentioned, is usually down to a resetting switch, that hasn't been set up properly - or a switch that requires 2 or more tasks before it can be activated. I've also encountered the same problem - but it's usually through a fault of my own - it might be best to double check those switches.
Also if you've added monsters that are slightly too big, this can cause them to just roam around the dungeon and not attack - especially if they cast spells. The attack view is present, but no action is initiated.
Just a few pointers I'd thought I would mention.

Also, regarding monsters, if you wish them to carry or convert into something else when they are destroyed, it is best to use a teleporter.
Hide the monster from the partys' view, usually a one square radius far away from the playing field. Set up a pressure pad to activate the teleporter when the creature has been killed, and hey presto! Another creature takes it's place and/or the item is summoned to an alcove or something similar.
I did the same thing with Dran from EOB and the dragon he changes into when you think you've destroyed him, he comes back - you could also link this onto another switch so when you think it's over, you pick something up, then the fight starts all over again.

As for file formats, the default settings are in GIF while the code will allow for PNG monsters and custom doors.
Like Ian mentioned earlier, all the .class files have now been updated to PNG, which will allow for a better "feel" to the gameplay, especially for shadowing and transparency effects.

As for DMJ itself, personally, I've never encountered any problems with it. The installation is straight-forward and as for the shortcuts, after install they are made for you.
It's much more versatile than what you see at first glance, and with a little creative flair and imagination, you'll be surprised at just what we can re-create!

But each to their own.

GandolfA · Post by **GandolfA** » Wed Jan 24, 2007 9:40 pm

Ah thanx kelly, ill double check my switches prob whats causing it. I'll also keep in mind how to change monsters to something diffrent, thanx was a good idea. I havent had any real problems with dmj itself either, just minor things. Btw keep up good work on addons kelly.
Almost done with 2nd level of dungeon ^__^

GandolfA · Post by **GandolfA** » Fri Jan 26, 2007 4:17 am

Currently im editing the source code in dmj to change spell cost, starting statss, level up stats, pit damage and few other things to match what i want done in game. ^___^ java is easy to read just alot simplier ver of C++ ^______^