Greetings, and HELP needed with CSBuild (2.51)

Angst · Post by **Angst** » Thu Sep 06, 2007 5:20 pm

Greetings all,
First, I’d like to say that this is a great forum. I was an Amiga DM /CSB player from 18 years ago and was overjoyed to find that someone had (successfully) ported them over to the PC. Great job guy(s).

Ok, so I’ve been lurking around here for awhile (getting cool tips etc. – I finished DM years ago but was never able to totally get through CSB, so I was getting a little walkthrough advice for the tricky parts and things like that) but now have the need to make my first post / request / plea for help.

I downloaded the CSBuild(2.51) utility with the hopes of looking at how several of the cool things about the dungeons were created AND with the hopes of designing my own mazes to share with my friends (and the cool people on this forum, of course) when I ran headlong into a problem… for the LIFE of me I can’t get a game (newly created or altered from existing .dat data) to play properly.

Every time I open a dungeon, I am reminded (and I quote) “You have not decided whether or not to have the runtime engine discard duplicate timer entries. See Edit/Global/Databases.”

Ok, so I go into Edit / Global Info / Edit Database (button), find the Delete Duplicate Timer Messages in the pull down and set (write) the value of 0 (zero) (like the default recommends) and save the dungeon making sure that “Dungeon Format” is checked under the File Menu.
When I try to RUN it later... No luck... won't run.

If I’ve edited a saved game CSBgame.dat file, when I load it up I am informed that the ”SAVED GAME IS DAMAGED!”.
If I just take dungeon.dat and alter THAT, I’m informed that “The Game cannot be Opened” when I try to run it in DM.
If I create a game from scratch I get the same message. (DM or CSB)
Same thing for mini.dat when trying to play Chaos.

I guess I need to know where I’m going wrong here.
I’m using CSBWin to play DM and CSB (both downloaded right from this site). I’m not sure which version it is (2.0 comes up on the Dungeon Entrance / Splash screen when CSB is started if that helps) and I was wondering several things:
1.) Which exact .dat files should I be altering in CSBuild? Dungeon.dat (from DM)? Mini.dat (from CSB) or the saved game files from either (CSBgame.dat)?
2.) CAN I alter dungeon.dat and then play it in DM (under CSBWin) or does any file altered or created in CSBuild HAVE to be played in CSB ? (the game of CHAOS, I mean, not just the CSBWin arena)
3.) Where is the proper database setting (and WHAT is the value) to ignore duplicate timer entries?
4.) Is there a way to place the Prison Starting Point on any other location than level 00? (the text field for 'Level' is grayed out). I can probably “swap levels” later but I was wondering if there’s just something I’m missing.
5.) If I create a NEW game, do I have to save it as mini.dat and overwrite THAT in the CSB Folder? (or dungeon.dat in the case of DM), or can I run an "angst_001.dat" file, for example? (and if SO, how...?)

Other than that, just so you know, I’m:
1.) running CSBuild 2.51 on both XP and Vista Notebooks (getting the problems on both OS’s),
2.) Have plenty of RAM, HDD space and system resources, with no other conflicts there.
3.) Making sure to save the dungeons with ‘Dungeon Format’ checked.
4.) Not Encrypting anything.
5.) Running ‘Check Everything’ before I save a dungeon.
6.) Attempting to alter and play EVERY file: dungeon.dat, mini.dat, csgame.dat files, nothing works (they all SAVE fine but cannot be run later)
7.) Trying to create games from SCRATCH. No problem saving but no luck running.
8.) Trying both games to see if the altered games can run in DM and CSB. No luck.

Just need to know what steps I need to take to create and play a new dungeon (in CSB and DM)
AND
what steps (and files) I need to alter for existing DM and CSB games.

If I can get these things done, I have some cool dungeons (at least I think so) that I can post for the community to wander around in.
Any help will be GREATLY appreciated.

Thanks in advance,

~Angst…

Adamo · Post by **Adamo** » Thu Sep 06, 2007 5:46 pm

Hello Angst and welcome to the forums!!
Glad you like the BestGameInHistory and want to make your own dungeon!!!

But you need to know it ain`t easy task..

As for the editor, the current (newest) version is CSBuild253.exe and the current CSB engine is CSBwin10_013.exe (I always downloaded stuff from HERE: http://www.dianneandpaul.net/CSBwin/ ). It`s safe to use them both - current editor version vs current engine version. You can REPLACE this both files with the original ones.

(I guess this thread should be moved from here to "Chaos Strikes Back For Windows and Linux / CSBuild" forum)..?

Adamo · Post by **Adamo** » Thu Sep 06, 2007 6:00 pm

As for the timer entries, here`s some discussion:
http://www.dungeon-master.com/forum/vie ... ht=entries

Angst · Post by **Angst** » Thu Sep 06, 2007 6:06 pm

Hey Adamo,
Thanks for the welcome and the site information I just went there and it's down (only for a little while, I hope). I'll check back in a bit.
Sorry if I posted this in the wrong place, I just assumed that the CSB section was proper. Please feel free to move it if this is not the case.
Thanks again,
~Angst...

Adamo · Post by **Adamo** » Thu Sep 06, 2007 6:16 pm

Paul`s site is online again. I just downloded the game from here: http://dmweb.free.fr/?q=node/851 (SCBwin100_PC_CSB.zip file), added a newest editor (CSBuild253.exe) from Paul`s site and tried to open mini.dat with the editor. Everything seems to be ok under XP. What exactly have you edited in the original dungeon so it doesn`t load?

Adamo · Post by **Adamo** » Thu Sep 06, 2007 6:27 pm

4.) Is there a way to place the Prison Starting Point on any other location than level 00? (the text field for 'Level' is grayed out). I can probably “swap levels” later but I was wondering if there’s just something I’m missing.

When you enter the menu (Edit/Global Info) there is Prison starting Location sub-menu and a "browse" button. Press it so you can choose levels (up level/down level), put button somewhere and press OK.

Adamo · Post by **Adamo** » Thu Sep 06, 2007 6:30 pm

1.) Which exact .dat files should I be altering in CSBuild? Dungeon.dat (from DM)? Mini.dat (from CSB) or the saved game files from either (CSBgame.dat)?

by altering you mean replacing with edited ones? You can do it with dungeon.dat, mini.dat, CSBgame1.dat, CSBgame2.dat, CSBgame3.dat and CSBgame4.dat files

Adamo · Post by **Adamo** » Thu Sep 06, 2007 6:33 pm

2.) CAN I alter dungeon.dat and then play it in DM (under CSBWin) or does any file altered or created in CSBuild HAVE to be played in CSB ? (the game of CHAOS, I mean, not just the CSBWin arena)

not quite sure what you mean; the engine for DM and CSB is the same, just the DUNGEON and GRAPHICS files are replaced; same with any other customs. So when you run DM`s dungeon.dat and graphics.dat, you will play DM. When you run CSB`s dungeon.dat and graphics.dat, you will play CSB.

Adamo · Post by **Adamo** » Thu Sep 06, 2007 6:36 pm

5.) If I create a NEW game, do I have to save it as mini.dat and overwrite THAT in the CSB Folder? (or dungeon.dat in the case of DM), or can I run an "angst_001.dat" file, for example? (and if SO, how...?)

I always replaced the dungeon.dat with another dungeon.dat during the editing; the file MUST be named "dungeon.dat" so it works.

Adamo · Post by **Adamo** » Thu Sep 06, 2007 6:45 pm

3.) Where is the proper database setting (and WHAT is the value) to ignore duplicate timer entries?

well, you don`t have to change it and ignore the message; it will be set to default (originally the engine discarded duplicated messages). When an actuator gets more than one message in the same time, they will be discarded (only one is delivered). By disabling this, an actuator will recieve all the messages if you need it.

Adamo · Post by **Adamo** » Thu Sep 06, 2007 6:59 pm

I’m using CSBWin to play DM and CSB (both downloaded right from this site). I’m not sure which version it is (2.0 comes up on the Dungeon Entrance / Splash screen when CSB is started if that helps)

you can easily check wchich version of CSBwin and CSBuild you`re using by help/about in the menu

Adamo · Post by **Adamo** » Thu Sep 06, 2007 7:08 pm

Just need to know what steps I need to take to create and play a new dungeon (in CSB and DM)
AND
what steps (and files) I need to alter for existing DM and CSB games.

the simplest thing to make your own dungeon is to load current version of CSBuild (to edit dungeon.dat file), current version of CSBwin and original graphics.dat file. Optionally you can load ADGE (to edit graphics.dat file) and current version of CSBgraphics.exe (to edit CSBgraphics.dat file).

CSBgraphics.exe can be downloaded from Paul`s site (CSBgraphics43.zip), ADGE can be downloaded from http://www.uwm.edu/~pjgross/adgev04b.zip

Run CSBuild program and make a new dungeon. You can add levels via Edit/Global Info option. Then Edit/Level Info and Add Column & Add Row buttons.

Adamo · Post by **Adamo** » Thu Sep 06, 2007 7:15 pm

Sorry if I posted this in the wrong place, I just assumed that the CSB section was proper. Please feel free to move it if this is not the case.

no probs, I`m sure Beo would move the thread

Post by **Paul Stevens** » Thu Sep 06, 2007 7:31 pm

I just posted
http://dianneandpaul.net/CSBwin/Example ... SBuild.zip

It has everything you need to get one successful
edit under your belt.

We are going to put an apple in the prison.

Put all the files in a folder.
Double-click CSBuild253.exe
File/Open/dungeon.dat
Ignore the warning for now....no harm will come.
Right-click the starting location. (Red circles)
Click new in the top left.
Click 'OK'. We will put an apple there.
Click 'OK'. It is an important apple.
Click 'OK'. We are done editing that cell.
File/Save
Exit
Double-click CSBwin10_13.exe
Click Dungeon
Click Prison
Turn right and observe the apple.

Once you have done this successfully, I will
attempt to answer other questions.

Angst · Post by **Angst** » Fri Sep 07, 2007 6:51 pm

Adamo and Paul,
You guys rock. Thanks for all the assistance.
Paul: Yep, everything's fine with your tutorial, I got the "important apple" placed with no problem. Actually, PLACING items (and such) was never my problem before (I actually pretty much figured out the -simpler- parts of the program for that stuff). My issues were trying to load games that would always crash later. Apparently, your inclusion of the latest versions of CSBWin and CSBuild fixed the problem. I STILL get the database message, but I can ignore it now and save games (and play them later) with no problem.

Question 1: Do I ever need to edit the mini.dat file (if I wanted to make a brand new dungeon for example) or should I just ignore that and make ONE, complete new dungeon.dat file and have done with it? I guess what I'm asking is: for a NEW dungeon, do I need to bother altering two files; one fore the 'prison level' and then one for the actual dungeon, or should I just go with the old DM approach and have the prison level at the top and build the rest of the maze below it all in ONE file (the dungeon.dat file)?

Question 2: To that end, I'm having trouble with the Character Portraits. I can create new characters AND portrait frames no problem but I can't seem to link them (so that selecting one allows you to resurrect a character). Checking the original dungeon.dat (for CSB) isn't helping either. I don't see any difference in THEIR code vs. mine. Theirs, however, allows you to ressurect a fierce dungeon explorer while mine only allows you to look at a pretty picture on the wall (sometimes WITH a frame, sometimes not - THAT, I still don't get. Sometimes I'm allowed to create a frame that shows the graphic of itself, other times I don't have that pulldown option available... any thoughts?)

Question 3: I notice that if I use the old 'prison level' (CSB) to select characters and save that game, when I use the utility to make a new game it crashes IF I've altered the mini.dat file. In other words, I create a NEW dungeon, name it mini.dat and place it into the game folder (with the executable) and try to run it from the beginning (resume). It invariably crashes (I guess that's why I asked question 1... to see if using one, simple dungeon.dat file is better than trying to use two separate files (which do the same thing, if you really think about it)).

Statement 1: Paul, that tutorial was great and if there're any more like that around (the using of CSBuild) I'd love it if you could turn me on to them.

I still have a lot of questions as to how actuators work (but I'm sure I can SEARCH through the forum and get some answers), but is there a list of some explanations of what certain things mean? "Important" apple vs. Non-important (for example). What exactly the Light Levels on dungeons are (I realize that higher is lighter, but what's the range?) You know, stuff like that.

Is there a way to edit creatures and items in CSBuild (is it a 1-stop-shopping experience) or do I need other programs to do this? (I have seen some stuff in the TOOLS section but was trying to learn CSBuild first to see if I even NEEDED those others).

Anyway, thanks again you guys (Adamo and Paul), you've been really helpful and I'm starting to take 25 years of old D&D and Jorune Dungeons I've run and build them in CSB/DM. I'm going to give them to a few friends (who originally played them all those years ago - for nostalgia's sake) and once they've play tested them, I'll be happy to post them here (if anyone really cares to play).

Later my friends,

~Angst...

Post by **Paul Stevens** » Fri Sep 07, 2007 7:40 pm

1) A single DUNGEON.DAT is what you should do.
The MINI.DAT was a fudge around the limitations
of small floppy disks.

2) You need to create a text in the cell in which
you are standing when selecting a portrait.
( Use the 'edit portrait' option when editing the
text. ) In order to show the frame (which is a
wall decoration ) you have to be sure that the
frame is listed as a legal decoration for the level.
Use the Edit Level dialog---the same one you use
to increase the number of rows.

3) Complicated business. The MINI.DAT is a
special case which is combined with the saved game
from the DUNGEON.dat. At any rate, see 1). You
need not fiddle with this complication.
You can edit the mini.dat and use it as it was
used in the original CSB, however. But you cannot
use it as a 'saved' game or a 'dungeon.dat'.

No tutorials that I know of. Trial and error/questions
to the forum will suffice to get you going very
quickly. It is all common sense after you do it
for a while.

I am not at all familiar with editing items. Lots of
things can be done and have been done by others.
Hopefully when you get experienced enough that
you can ask sensible questions then someone will
pipe up and answer them. That someone is not
likely to be me except for some implementation details.

Adamo · Post by **Adamo** » Fri Sep 07, 2007 10:56 pm

Is there a way to edit creatures and items in CSBuild (is it a 1-stop-shopping experience) or do I need other programs to do this?

yes, you can edit monster`s bitmaps via ADGE, same with their behaviour (and also a lot of other stuff). I suggest you to download ADGE from ( http://www.uwm.edu/~pjgross/adgev04b.zip )-if you have any problems with this app (I had), take a look at this thread: http://www.dungeon-master.com/forum/vie ... hp?t=24552
By ADGE you can easily modify graphics.dat file (instead of CSBuild, wchich modifies dungeon.dat). The graphics.dat contains all in-game bitmaps and a lot of modifieble stuff, like monster editor, monster drops editor, spell editor, items editor etc.
There is an ADGE readme file, wchich is very helpful (***but still has some errors in description! See my table codes here: http://www.dungeon-master.com/forum/vie ... hp?t=26563 ***). So monster editor SHOULD look like this: http://www.dmjump.net/wyslac.jpg

Do I ever need to edit the mini.dat file (if I wanted to make a brand new dungeon for example) or should I just ignore that and make ONE, complete new dungeon.dat file and have done with it?

as Paul said, give up - whole dungeon in ONE file is definitely better idea!!

I still have a lot of questions as to how actuators work

to save you searching, Paul`s docs are helpfull: http://www.dianneandpaul.net/CSBwin/doc ... uator.html

What exactly the Light Levels on dungeons are (I realize that higher is lighter, but what's the range?)

Best description of light sources is on http://www.dianneandpaul.net/CSBwin/Tec ... aneous.htm

Also, Beo arranged a lot of useful links on that thread to safe you searching: http://www.dungeon-master.com/forum/vie ... hp?t=25391

I hope it`s not too much - this stuff (ADGE editors, actuators, etc) looks quite complicated, but it really isn`t when you try this in practice (well, as long as you won`t start with DSAs..

). But remember to make file backups frequently!

Angst · Post by **Angst** » Mon Sep 17, 2007 5:49 pm

Hey guys,
I haven't forgotten about you, I've been digging into the CSBuild instructions and learning about this great software (also ripping apart DM and CSB to see how they originally created those vexing puzzles) so that's why I haven't posted in a while.

Right now I believe that I've got the 'meat and potatoes' of CSBuild down and I'm starting to put together some of my old dungeons for my friends to playtest. Once THAT'S all done, I'll put some mazes up here for the forum members to wander about in (although, seeing some of the phenomenal custom dungeons that ALREADY exist, something tells me that my humble little offerings won't make much of a splash. Ah well... The fun's in the CREATING of these things, I guess).

My final quest involves getting a handle on how DSAs work and I'm gleaning all I can from the appropriate threads to get up to speed on those. Once I have THAT, I'm going to learn ADGE and have some tries at the graphics (I'm a graphic artist / web developer, so we'll see what kind of idiocy I can muster on THOSE fronts).

I just wanted to check back in and thank Adamo and Paul once again for all their great help. You guys really got me up and running (there will - of course - have to be the secret easter-egg references to you guys or (better yet) appropriate creatures / characters (the Iron Adamo? The wise sage Luap Snevets? We shall have to wait and see) in my first official forum offering).

Thanks again guys, I really appreciate the help.

Later,
~Angst...

PS Now that I'm as into this forum as I am, I must apologize for my previous "newbieness" in posting my initial question here in the 'General CSB' Forum when it CLEARLY belonged in the 'Chaos Strikes Back for Windows and Linux / CSBuild' thread. Admin, please feel free to move this entire magilla over to that section to avoid confusion with normal, everyday threads on General CSB.

... or don't... the choice is yours (as is this entire, cool forum).

Post by **Paul Stevens** » Mon Sep 17, 2007 5:58 pm

sage Luap Snevets?

My middle name is Robert. 'Trebor' sounds
a bit better than 'Snevets'.

Angst · Post by **Angst** » Mon Sep 17, 2007 6:19 pm

Paul,
Indeed.
However, Trebor Snevets DOES have a cool ring to it, no?

~A...

Adamo · Post by **Adamo** » Mon Sep 17, 2007 9:03 pm

Admin, please feel free to move this entire magilla over

hehe, Gambit is busy and Beo is in India right now, so that will wait I guess..

I'm a graphic artist

ooh, are you interested with drawing new creatures (?) If so, then you should check THAT out: http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/mg/20050324a
there is a lot more on their site (D&D), and some of them can be even spinned, wchich would help you drawing. Maybe you want a new wallset? I can draw one for you when I find some time - I already draw lot of`em, and it`s really, really tremendous work!

My final quest involves getting a handle on how DSAs work and I'm gleaning all I can from the appropriate threads to get up to speed on those. Once I have THAT, I'm going to learn ADGE and have some tries at the graphics

you want to learn how to use ADGE AFTER learning the DSA syntax??? I`m not sure it`s a good idea. I would swap the topics and learn ADGE first... DSA is a real hard part of bread, wchich I think only 4 persons on this forum could help you with (Paul Stevens, Zyx, Beo and Sophia).
My advice is that you better build common dungeon and THEN add some DSAs, if you need to (or use already written DSAs - I can send you those already written I`m using in my dungeon with a description). DSAs are made for the special cases and it has its own language. You can make most thing using ordinary actuators. The DM/CSB original engine is so well written, that you can build a REALLY complicated structures (take a look at CSB`s "randomizer" for example).
Well, in some cases using DSAs are lot easier than building complicated structures, but you need a lot of patience to learn its syntax.

For the beginning, take a look at original dungeons: they`re not encrypted, so you will find out, how the actuators are used.

I've been digging into the CSBuild instructions and learning about this great software

Topics you`re interested in are spread through the forum. My advice: take all CSBwin-concerned forum topics you`re interested in, Paul`s documentation etc, put it all together, print and bind. You`ll get a sort of a quite big book, wchich you`ll spent money for (paper, black ink & binding!), but it`s better than searching the forum for old topics all over again.. Besides, (as for me), I hate reading text from monitor - I prefere paper.

Angst · Post by **Angst** » Fri Sep 28, 2007 10:29 pm

Hey Guys,
Still plugging away on some Dungeons. It's going well.
I'm taking your advice, Adamo, and learning the graphic editor first (though, looking briefly into creating DSAs has made my mouth water, so we'll see how THAT goes after I've created some custom graphics).

SPEAKING of which, I downloaded and started playing CONFLUX III and I'm loving it (it is rather tough, but that's what 'Save' is for, no?) Great graphics. (Gives me some cool ideas)

I'm still looking into getting a simple explanation of the graphics editor ('masks' still confuse me - not the concept (I use Photoshop daily) but here in the context of DM (I know I'll get it eventually)).

As to creating new monsters, I'm already at work on some of my own and my next big project will be the 'DMizing' of this happy fellow I drew back in my RolePlaying days. That should be a treat. (Not sure how he'll look all pixelized, but we won't know 'til I do it).

http://www.wolfsongs.net/portfolio/images/guard_002.jpg

I have dozens of things like this that I can redraw for the game and I'll be happy to make them available once I'm happy with how they look all crunched down.

(Actually, I'm CONSIDERING doing an all grayscale dungeon (what is it, 32 shades?) so that I can make it more photo realistic. Yes, we'll lose some color, but the Black and White feel might be more conducive to that eerie feel I'm looking for).

Talk to you guys soon.

~Angst...

[/i]

Des · Post by **Des** » Sat Sep 29, 2007 12:01 am

Love the artwork

Adamo · Post by **Adamo** » Sat Sep 29, 2007 12:15 am

hey Angst, you draw very nice!!!
You use a photoshop daily.. are you a painter? When I started with CSBwin, I had NO IDEA about GIMP. I choose it because its free and wanted to change monster`s colours somehow.

What do you mean you want to make a greyscale dungeon? A dungeon with 32 grey shades? A wallset in 32 grey shades? Well, I have to grieve you then: CSBwin is an exact translation of original Atari code, and it uses only 16 colours at all on the screen! And they`re all already choosen! But yes, you`re right about the fact, that greyscale walls looks best (if that`s what you mean). But the "scale" you can use is really small. These are:

Code: Select all

1. white (16th colour from original DM palette), 
2. pale*/light (14th colour from original DM palette), 
3. "light" grey (3rd colour from original DM palette), 
4. "normal" grey (2nd colour from original DM palette), 
5. "dark" grey (13th colour from original DM palette), 
6. black (1st colour from original DM palette).

So you`ve got only... 6 grey shades!!! But it is enough for building a good wallset.
I also agree with you that black-grey-white dungeon looks best. I realized that now, when I did all (including wallsets) in colours!

Hope you had no problems with running ADGE?

Angst · Post by **Angst** » Sat Sep 29, 2007 4:56 am

Hey thanks for the nice words guys,
Adamo, I'm a web developer so I spend on average two to three hours a day in Photoshop (and another two writing html).
I'm more of a traditional artist than a 'painter', but I do a lot of digital art these days and have learned to 'paint' fairly well in Photoshop.

Here's one I'm working on for a comedy story I'm writing, but I like the Portrait idea so maybe I'll use it for a DM story background (and some cool character portraits).

http://www.wolfsongs.net/ws/3/images/co ... or_001.jpg

Are you saying that there's no way to alter the 16 colors? I HAVE to use their palette? There's no way to change all the colors to shades of gray? Boy, that would bite!

Post by **Paul Stevens** » Sat Sep 29, 2007 5:42 am

You can create your own palette.
But the 16-colors-at-a-time limitation
is absolute. And one of the viewport
colors is also used to draw the spell/attack
options. So you really have only 15.
It is all because of the way the Atari
hardware worked.

CSBuild/CSBWin is not going to be the
answer if what you want is graphic quality.
There are clever things you can do (ConfluxIII
is proof of that) but . . . . .graphics? No.

If you decide that CSBwin cannot do the
job then I advise DSB because of its (mostly)
open source and (kinda) scripting capability.
[Sure wish she would fix the CPU problem and
provide windowed capability.]

Adamo · Post by **Adamo** » Sat Sep 29, 2007 2:14 pm

Angst: in fact, you can use more than 15 colours at all; there`s some special tip, where you can actually replace 2 "special" colours (colours 9 and 10 on a table below) each level depending on the monster assigned to the level. So, if you`re a clever designer, you can draw your monsters using different colours on each level. The threads showing how to do that are in the CSbuild/CSBwin section.

BTW. this table shows the original colours used in DM:
0. colour =#000000
1. colour =#6D6D6D
2. colour =#919191
3. colour =#6D2400
4. colour =#00DADA
5. colour =#914800
6. colour =#009100
7. colour =#00DA00
8. colour =#FF0000
9. colour =#FFB600
10. colour =#DA916D
11. colour =#FFFF00
12. colour =#484848
13. colour =#B6B6B6
14. colour =#0000FF
15. colour =#FFFFFF

take a look at http://www.dianneandpaul.net/CSBwin/doc ... Colors.exe
***********************
I`ll post a demo showing the capability of using 6-colour wallsets wallsets soon (colours 0, 12, 1, 2, 13, 15 on a table above).

Angst · Post by **Angst** » Mon Oct 01, 2007 10:58 pm

Adamo and Paul,
Thanks for the info.

Paul: Can I assume that the one color you speak of (the one that draws spell / attack options) is (or can be) one of the shades of gray? If SO, then I WILL have all 16 B&W Shades to play with and that could be cool (I'm planning on doing the ENTIRE dungeon in B&W... Walls, Items AND Creatures. In such a case, the graphics won't be limited at all (if one can get past all B&W) Again, while some will bemoan the loss of color, I feel that a B&W Dungeon could surmount this annoyance and give innate 'eerieness' by supplying an almost 'Lovecraft-ian' atmosphere.

I used to use the old Amiga Shoot 'Em Up Construction Set and I did every foreground item in 8 shades of Red and all the backgrounds in 8 shades of Blue. Despite the 'monochrome' look, you can get a surprising amount of detail with those two 8-hue variations and some friends commented very positively on the graphics I was able to do. If I can get 16 shades of gray then I'll be most happy, because then I can do stuff that's practically photo-quality.
I'm assuming that if I go into ADGE, I can set the palette THERE? (and then just save the appropriate graphics.dat? into the proper directory?)
If this is the case, do you know off-hand which color is the 'locked' one (the one you described before)? This way I can make sure not to alter it (or if I CAN alter it, make sure that it stands out specifically from whatever color the interface background winds up being).

Adamo: Cool, any tutorials you have would be welcome and I'd love to see some of your wall sets. I'm sure they'd give me many cool ideas.

Just as an aside, I think I'll do a cool drawing of Daroou (I never did one before in all these years despite the fact that he's my favorite DM character). I wonder what he is... a Sasquatch perhaps. Is there any background on him (fan-fiction aside)? It doesn't really matter, I'd just be curious.

Perhaps he and Wuuf are second cousins.

Thanks again guys,
~A...

PS What's a 'Bika' (New York slang for Biker? Does Wuuf wear riding leathers in the cold?)

beowuuf · Post by **beowuuf** » Mon Oct 01, 2007 11:36 pm

Cows did some research and I think a Bika was somehting to do with egyptian mythology, to do with a dog-man and anubis actually...

Adamo · Post by **Adamo** » Tue Oct 02, 2007 12:59 am

I used to use the old Amiga Shoot 'Em Up Construction Set and I did every foreground item in 8 shades of Red and all the backgrounds in 8 shades of Blue. Despite the 'monochrome' look, you can get a surprising amount of detail with those two 8-hue variations and some friends commented very positively on the graphics I was able to do.

yes, you could do that in CSBwin (8 shades red+8 shades blue), so you could even use your bitmaps from Amiga, but it would require a lot of works on some very tricky changes using the Viewport Palette. Check this thread: http://www.dungeon-master.com/forum/vie ... hp?t=24570
But then, you should change ALL the stuff; the items, monsters and decorations change their colours when you come close to them - you should change that. The same with the wallsets. All that can be done in ADGE.

Oh, and don`t forget about light levels; there are 7 of them. So you should actually assign 16*7 changes through Viewport palette.

OK, that`s my proposition. Take all the original colour used in a game (I listed them above). Then assign a replaced colour to every one that was already used using Viewport Palette function. it works that way: when the engine will see #XXXXXX colour it replaces it to #YYYYYY colour. So, all in all, 16 changes(*). Then you should remember the changes, because the engine itself accept only the original ones. So if you draw anything - (originally in 8 blue+8 red colours) you should change them to original palette before adding a bitmap to CSBgraphics,dat file. They would certainly look strange, but the engine would swap them to the assigned ones. You will get then a whole dungeon of your own palette (the viewport AND the interface). 16 colours whichever you wish.

(*)- note: actually, the DM uses much more than 16. Because it replaces 2 of them with the different ones depending on the level, more precisely on the first special-coloured monster on the level. So that`s how you can see a magenta worm of 3-shades-red dragon. But that`s another story.

Dungeon Master Forum

Greetings, and HELP needed with CSBuild (2.51)

Greetings, and HELP needed with CSBuild (2.51)

Thanks much...