I finally made it!

[Lord Firestaff]

Hi folks,

i am new to this forum.
First time i played DM was back in the late 80s or early 90s as a kid on my father's Atari ST. Together with friends I managed to get to the "Riddle Room" level, but never further (though I managed to solve the initial riddles). I remember it took me ages and many many tried to finish off the purple worms on their respective level.

I first discovered this forum in early 2007 and immediately downloaded RTC and started a game after all these years. This time, i got as far as the scorpions/beholder level. I came to a point where I was stuck and thereafter I didn't continue due to lack of time.
A month ago i wanted to give it another try, starting from the very beginning again. I did still have the 2007 savegame but didn't feel like continuing a game that i started over two years ago. This time i went with CSBwin, because i didn't like the "not orignal" monster behaviour in RTC, especially in the early levels where mummies and blue monsters were supposed to attack in parties and not one by one like in RTC. What i really like about RTC though is the spellbook and the fact that you could only cast spells when you find the right scrolls.
So i started a new game in CSBwin but gave myself the restriction to only ever use spells that i have disovered on scolls in the dungeon. That means, for example, no fireballs until the "arena" level. This restricion wasnt to hard for me because i couldnt remember any of the spells exept torch and heal potion (which is no big issue as you find the scrolls on the first level anyway) and the fireball.

The Party i took in my 2007 RTC game was: Zed, Daroou, Stamm and Wuuf. I used darouu and stamm for the front row and the other two for back.
This time i decided to get rid of Zed (although he was my favourite DM champion "back in the days") because he might be well balanced, but i don't think this is an advantage in a four people party. So this time i decided not to pick allrounders like Zed but specialists.
I went for:
- Hissssa
- Darouu
- Boris
- Mophus

with Mophus being the teams's captain.

I never ever picked Hissa and Mophus before, while Darouu and Boris were some standard guys in my previous parties (that never made it to the end...).
Front row Hissa and Darouu as classic fighters, Boris as a skilled wizard and Mophus as the party's main priest. I thought the lack of real priest character in my 2007 RTC party was one of the reasons i didn't made it through. This time i wanted to focus more on potions which i never really did before.

Anyway, this time i made it to the very end and, what should i say... this is clearly the best game ever. I haven't finished many games before as i am not a passionated gamer but defeating lord chaos was really great. this dungeon is so perfect. the central stairway with the skelleton keys is so amazing, it connects the lower levels all together. what a great idea!

i almost had to give up on two particular points in the game:
-on the knights/giant spiders level because i was terribly running out of food. three of my four party members died on my way up to the rats level, only daroou managed to survive this and get several chests full of drumsticks again while placing the other party members dead bones on the vi altar at the end of the riddle room level... it was a real pain to do that and pretty close (Darouu was in the red zone for food and yellow for water when reaching the rats level)
-the other one was when i finished the knights level and went down to lord chaos. i realized that i must have missed a RA key somewhere because i only had two instead of the required three. I thought it was maybe hidden in the lord chaos level but i didnt find anything. i killed all the demons during that search I finally realized that i must really have missed it somewhere and i went up all the way to the treasure rooms level and began to search. that took a lot of time. finally i found it in the rats level, it was in a small room with a fountain which I seem to have not entered by the time i was clearing that level, and not the second time i went there with starving Darouu either....

Then i went to the firestaff level, picked the firestaff and went back down to the dragons level to get the gem and finally finish chaos off, 20 years after the very first attempt

Here is my party at the end of the game: http://img381.imageshack.us/img381/4056/dmparty.jpg

Although i finished Chaos off, there are things and places that i havent found out:
1. In the second part of the riddle room level, after the two doors where you have to get the keys from the tomb of king milias and filias, there is an area that says "test your strength" and some teleport action is going on there. I never got through this. Later in that level, there were many doors that i wasn't able to open, too.
2. Another thing is the very last keyhole down the skelleton stairway that has some kind of "E" symbol on it and apparenty leads to the dragon level. I didn't find that key in the whole dungeon. where is it?
3. I had the complete armor of darc, but only the helmet and the shield of the armor of lite. where are the remaining parts of the armor of lite? does it give you extra armor bonus if you wear a complete set?
4. It seems that i must have missed a skeleton key, as there was one passage that i couldnt open because i had no more key left (which was on the rat level, because it was in the part of the level that i only discovered at the very end and have used all the keys before that). Are there enough skeleton keys to open every passage to the central stairway?
5. What is the best melee weapon? i was very comfortable with the axe found in the worm level, the hard cleave found on the scorpions/beholder level and the morningstar found in the "clockwise" section of the water elemental's level.

I am looking forward to your answers to the questions and your comments on this very first DM finish of mine

PS: Thanks very much to the creators of CSBwin and RTC. It's so nice to keep this faboulous game alive this way!

[Ameena]

Firstly, welcome to the forum and gratz on pwning the DM dungeon . Now let me see if I can answer any of your points (and bear in mind I'm just doing this from memory and it's midnight and I've just got back from a day out in London and I've gotta get up for work tomorrow morning so I'm a bit knackered but I'll give it a go anyway )...

1 - At "Test Your Strength", I think you have to chuck something (preferably a light item like a dagger or throwing star or whatever) down a corridor - if you throw the item far enough, it lands on a trigger that opens the nearby door or whatever it is (can't remember!).
2 - That symbol is "Ir" (the last rune you use to cast Fireball, shaped like a wing to represent the element of Air). The key used there is the Winged Key, which you find down a secret corridor on Level 7 (the Firestaff level). All it does is basically open a kind of "back door" corridor into the Dragon's lair though - there's nothing special down there.
3 - I think there are one or two items of the Lyte armour set in the Spider room near the end of Level 12 (think the inscription on the nearby wall is "Cowards will be hunted down and killed). Not too sure about the rest - I never bother with it .
4 - Yes, there is one Skeleton Key too few. The best level to leave out with regards to using the key is probably Level 12 because it's a Nasty Bastard level (bloody Spell Vines and crap, arrrgh, plus no real need to go back there once you've been through it once and got the MAster Key on your way out). You want your way open to Level 9 certainly, so you can have quick, easy access to that fountain in the safe room, as well as the Rat Room just down the corridor (unlimited food yaaay ).
5 - I've found that weapons with the "Thrust" attack have become my favourites (the rapier, later the Delta Blade, and finally the Inquisitor which sadly only really sees any action when I meet the Dragon) because they do good dam and have a reasonably short delay. I'm not sure whether that's just an RTC thing though. Weapons like Hardcleave are nice, dam-wise, but a bit slow for my taste . Oh and you should probably keep a spare pair of Vorpal Blades to swap to when you meet Non-Materials, unless you plan on just doing them with the Harm Non-Material Being spell .

Hope that answers your questions okay, but I'm sure someone else will jump in to provide a bit more info on the parts where I've probably been a bit vague .
So now you've conquered DM, time to move on to good ol' CSB. Have fun .

[beowuuf]

You crazy kids and your staying up to 3am listening to KoL rado...I mean, going to London late with work tomorrow....

Welcome to the forums Lord Firestaff!

A very interesting read, glad you managed to succeed finally, and felt it worth while! And now you see that the design of the dungeon even had your back for the food/water problems later, where the skeleton stairs have a lttle room with water and food nearby to help you with food shortages later on at the rat level!

I think Ameena has steered you ok with all her answers. I think the common concensus is to not open the skeleton lock at level 10 as monsters can drift in, or level 12 as you have access just down the stairs. The E key passage does make it easier to get in and out of the dragon level, and gives you a better escape than through lord chaos's level.

The inquisitor on the firestaff level also has the berserk option, so cold be seen as an 'ultimate' weapon. The diamond edge from near the start of level 11 is apparently very good in the hands of a ninja, especialy against armoured opponents.

I must admit to a preferece to wuuf and boris over characters such as gothmog and mophus. Wuuf seems pretty swift at learning spells, and has the flask and good mana. The beasts are good fighters though, with gos health and the starting allocation fo mana. I must admit, i love my stamm (axe and he seems to have less food consumption) and similarly halk for the strength, health and skills.


Glad you didn't give up! Chaos Strikes Back is a different dungeon to the original, a Lord Chaos to DM's Lord Order in feel!However, you current party seems good to import in to it for a challenge. That said, there is nothing to stop you trying DM again looking for more secrets. You can reincarnate the party this time, or even take a smaller party - solo runs are not too hard! The Dm Encclopaedia can give you alot of help about he background mechanics and secrets of DM now you have completed it honested


Anyway, once again congratulations and welcome! I think I Need more sleep...

[Jan]

Welcome to the party!

An interesing story - a party of three dead bodies and one dying and starving Darouu... man, you have some nerves! And those 20 years of waiting... wow... but now, you're back on track!

I'm also happy to meet someone ho prefers CSBWin.
(EDIT: But RTC is fine, I mean, it's really very very fine, nothing against it, thanks God it exists... thanks God George... what would we do without him?)

[zoom]

very interesting read to see what your perspective of the game (food problems) and difficulties in general were/is. and well done!

[Lord Firestaff]

thank you so far for the nice welcome and your comments and answers.

for those who are interested, these are the stats and inventories of my party members just before the final battle with lord chaos:
Hissssa: http://img200.imageshack.us/img200/3941/hissssa.jpg
Daroou: http://img200.imageshack.us/img200/8279/daroou.jpg
Boris: http://img200.imageshack.us/img200/5360/boris.jpg
Mophus: http://img200.imageshack.us/img200/7074/mophus.jpg

With Mophus being the team's captain it was his honor to fuse lord chaos (although daroou would have deserved it the most because he saved the other three from starving)

Interesting: When holding the firestaff, the levels are increadibly increased (compare mophus stats at end of the game in my previous post and his inventory in the link above).
But even when he doesn't hold the firestaff, he still has one wizard level more than its shown at the game ending screen (= Master instead of LO Master). Is this a bug? I must admit i was surprised he has a higher wizard level than boris, i usually don't miss the "XY just gained a wizard level" messages at the bottom of the screen.

Ameena, due to your hint concerning the winged key i took a look at DM maps for the first time and realized that i must have missed a greater part of the firestaff level. After i got the turqoise key i went back to the beginning and chosed one of the turquoise key doors, picked the Bolt Blade and other stuff and went back down to the arena level, turned left immediately and entered the skeleton stairway to go down and finish chaos off. in the maps, i see that there is some additional outer way in the firestaff level which leads to the bottom of the map. there seems to be another RA door with a stone golem behind it and another stairway down! where do these stairs lead at? the arena level too?
Another thing: i have been to that spider room you were talking about on the knights/spiders level. there was a pair of boots of speed and other stuff i cant remember (ful/ven bombs i think) , but certainly not the remaining parts of the armour of lite.
Is it even worth to get a full set or doesn't it make any difference?

Talking about the arena level: i remember getting in some kind of endless corridor that teleports you right to its beginning after a while. i didnt solve that riddle, but as a finished the game i guess its just for getting some bonus goodies, am i right?

I didn't use the vorpal blade in the whole game i think (you talk about vorpal bladeS - i only found one). I always killed non material beings with the DES EW spell or one of the several staffs that had the "dispell" option available. It was quite challenging for the materializers as you have to find the right moment to attack them. But if you did so, they were quickly gone.

Beowuuf, i thought the inquisitor has to be great too, but i didn't have a chance to really use it in combat. as i told before, i missed the RA key on the rats level and went down to the chaos level and the dragon level to search for it down there. i killed all the demons and the dragon with magic (fireball, lightning bolt, poison bolt/cloud) and the weapons i had by that time (hardcleave, morningstar/diamond edge). So by the time i got the inquisitor there wasnt much left to use it on. in fact only the two stone golems near the firestaff alcove. for the bolt blade it's even worse, i didn't have the opportunity to use it at all.
It's a pity that these two apparently great weapons can only be found that late in the game, although when you play it the way it's meant to be (getting the weapons first and then kill the demons and the dragon) you have at least the chance to use it for some fights. but wouldn't it be great if you had these weapons (especially the inquisitor) already for the knights/spiders level?

Concerning the champion choice, i think it's the first time ever on a serious attempt that i went without Stamm and Zed. The reasons why i didn't pick Zed are explained in the first post of this thread, but for Stamm in fact there was no real reason. He has never really disapointed me. I just felt that i had to change something compared to my previous attempts and i am glad i did so. why? simply because of the axe stamm owns at the start. if i would have picked stamm and daroou as fighters, from the worm level on i am sure i would have equiped both with axes till the very end, eventually substituting one of them with the hardcleave on the scorpion/beholder level. Now that i picked two fighters that didn't have any starting weapons i had to go with the stuff i find in the dungeon. that was a very intersting experience. at the beginning of the worm level i made Hissa the "axeman" and with Darouu i tried everything out that could be found: falchion, sword, rapier and sabre were all some kind of disappointment. the first decent weapon i found beside the axe was the delta, Daroou got along with it very well untill switching to hardcleave on the scorpion/beholder level. a level later, Hissa got rid of his axe to fight with morningstar and diamond edge, depending on his mood
So this was a great opportunity to check out the different weapons in the game, a thing i would probably not have done with stamm in my party.

Well another long post here, i guess that game can be discussed a lot even after beating it - another aspect that makes it so outstandingly great.
I hope to get more comments and answers

[Ian Clark]

Interesting: When holding the firestaff, the levels are increadibly increased...

That's correct. The bare Firestaff will increase all the holder's levels by 1. The completed Firestaff will increase them by 2.

Talking about the arena level: i remember getting in some kind of endless corridor that teleports you right to its beginning after a while. i didnt solve that riddle, but as a finished the game i guess its just for getting some bonus goodies, am i right?

Look for pressure pads on the floor. If I remember rightly you need to stand on one of the pads then turn around to reveal a passage.

I didn't use the vorpal blade in the whole game i think (you talk about vorpal bladeS - i only found one).

They are both found on the same level. One is quite well guarded!

[Jan]

Cool. Good work! Your champions were really very well trained, but relatively heavily loaded for my taste.

The endless corridor on the ghost level: as far as I remember, the pad is invisible. It's a tricky place.

Spoiler

You have to make a certain number of steps forward in the corridor (I think 25), then turn back and after a while a wall will open behind you to the left

. There is this great Delt sword, but nothing vitally important.

This stairway from the Firestaff level (behind the last of the golems) leads directly to the level with Lord Chaos.

I think you found the vorpal blade in this small room close to the end of the level, didn't you? The second one is earlier on this level,

Spoiler

in a secret chamber opened by a circle on a wall (maybe it is even in one more hidden room behind this one, opened by a small button on a wall, don't remember exactly)

.

[beowuuf]

Odd level bump - the pendant feral adds a wizard level aswell

Lyte armour - I believe most of the parts are at the start or end of the level 11 area, in some dead end parts

I think ian is correct about the arena corridor floor buttons, and jan the distance - you are walking along a 25 square corridor, and occasionally a floor button is visible. I think on the third you hold your ground, and after a delay a wall behind you is revealed

The delta (has thurst and axe options) and a jewel symal (has good anti-magic) are inside. Best yet, there is a floor button that is the thing that drives the fireballs in the arena! So if you kill the critters inside early, there is nothing left to fire fireballs and you can walk around happily in the main arena without needing to turn off the spinner by the fireball shooter!

The weapons all have their time really - the sabe and scimitar have good small attacks (like jab) and also have the melee attack. Swords and falchions are interchangeable, but the chop options is good for lower fighters. Never really relied on parry, I beleive it does (or was supposed to) add armour value temporarily

[Jan]

OK - as usually, I'm right, but Beowuuf is more right.

I never use parry either - especially because the time to recover is too long.

In the arena level, the first thing I always do (besides kiling the nearest ghosts and especially the annoying Gigglers) is that I run over the room to turn off the first teleport, so that the fireballs are not a problem anymore and I can enjoy killing the rest of the local inhabitants.

[Ameena]

Regards your question as to whether or not it makes any difference collecting the named armour sets - no, I don't think it does, really. I think the use of armour has been discussed before and I seem to recall the general consensus is that it's hardly a compulsory thing if you want to survive a dungeon. But you do take less damage from doors shutting on your head if you're wearing a helmet (of any type). I suppose the only reason you'd collect a full armour set like that would be just so you can say you've done it . And wow, you managed to equip someone in the full Darc set! I don't even bother going for that, 'cause most of it is lying around on level 12 guarded by those bloody Spell Vines. I thought there were one or two bits of Lyte armour in the Spider Room, but maybe I was mistaken. In fact I'll check my book now...right, reading from my hint book, the shield is on level 10, torso plate and greaves on level 11, helm on level 12 (aha, it is in the Spider Room)...hrmm, but no mention of the booties. Oh well, they'll be somewhere .
I just tend to wear whatever type of armour I can manage without going into the yellow (if that happens, I have to rearrange inventories till everyone's in the grey again). Usually mithril or whatever. Oh and if all your party members are wearing Boots of Speed, apparently it does make you move faster. I only take a team of two these days so I can usually manage that, I think .

[zoom]

for those who are interested, these are the stats and inventories of my party members...

nice one:) cool to have a bit of a story going on, like mophus is the leader etc..
you could train a bit more the ninja level of your champions(novice is not much, you can manage this on the first 2 levels)
maybe switch leader on occasion, to give some throwing experience to different party members..
and reincarnation seems to give higher stats overall, though some stats get lower(but these you don´t see and I am not sure either; anyway I guess reincarnation is better option at the start(or did you just rename them originally? .
another thing: try to get 4 sets of boots of speed if you play with 4 champions. Seems like a good idea. They make you fast as wind (even when loaded like you are) and also give you some little protection for feet !!
oh, and try to use more potions. STrength dex, wis etc.

Is it even worth to get a full set or doesn't it make any difference?

-depends on your playing style. If you get hit from monsters on occasion or frequently in a battle I would really use armor.
mithril is the best armor against certain monsters like the dragon, because dragons attack with a sharp attack and mithril is the hardest armour there, but when you fight against monsters that don´t have such a ferocious attack lite and darc armor would give you a better protection than mithril. mithril is hard but not as much armor as darc plate for instance.
some monsters don´t rely on the armor to compute damage, so anti magic etc is involved as well.(check out ency for more)

to use it for some fights. but wouldn't it be great if you had these weapons (especially the inquisitor) already for the knights/spiders level?

Sounds incredible , but actually the diamond edge and the hardcleave are the weapons to go most of the way.
(would have to check that again after some thought..)
The Inquisitor has berserk that´s true, and the name suggests to use it against demons, really. But for high armor foes you would definitely use the diamond edge instead. sometimes fists work wonders, too!

It was quite challenging for the materializers as you have to find the right moment to attack them. But if you did so, they were quickly gone.
could you please tell in detail how you managed this ?

[beowuuf]

Zoom - materialisers have to go solid when thye attack, and that's the time you can throw the whammy at them. In RTC, the spell also triggers damage if you hit the wall a materialiser is standing in, no mater their state.

I find armour good for golems, they hit quite hard. Shield spell and strength poitons are a good high level alternative to heavy armour, they give you decent protection and end the tough fights faster!

[Ameena]

When I'm fighting tough mobs, I just use a door or the step-dance to gank them .

[Trantor]

Once again, I'm late to the party, but: Welcome to the forums and congratulations on finishing the game!
I think everything has already been said by the less lazy posters here, so I will only add this: Choosing Boris is , choosing Mophus (and making him the leader of the gang!) makes me go .

[Duckman]

Not bad, not bad at all!


1. Shoot an arrow with your strongest character. If the teleporters do not return it, a door bit further has opened
2. Winged key unlocks it and it lead to the dragon, but i do not remember where the key is
3. Of what i know, it does not. sorry that i do not know
4. I might remember incorrectly but no, there are not.
5. In rtc the weapons with "thrust" ar usually the best. In CSBwin or original it is diamond edge with armored knights and stone golems, vorpal blade with ghosts and materializers, and the inqusitor with everything else (howerver it is also bit about what skill ye have learned and how ye fight).

[Jan]

@Duckman: I'm confused. What do the numbers in your post refer to? EDIT: Ahh, sorry, they refer to the original post - so ignore me.

Anyway, the winged key can be found in a secret chamber on level 6 (the Firestaff level).

[oh_brother]

I also just made it last night, take that Lord Chaos! When I joined the forums I had planned to just download the game, have a quick look in the Hall of Champions just to make sure everything was working, and then leave it until I had more time in late September. That didn't happen.

In the entire dungeon I managed not to fall down a single pit or walk into any of my fireballs, I seem to be getting better with age! Also the only times I reloaded where when I deliberately killed myself and once when I picked up the diamond edge and forgot how to avoid all the poison.

It was as I remembered, last night I managed to get from the rat level to finishing the game in about 3 hours, with only one sleep IIRC - simply used my fighters to chop everyone and my magic users to keep everyone alive and awake with health and stamina potions. I know that is nowhere near the incredible records, but it was certainly a record for me. I had planned to stay on the rat level for a while training, but I got bored and anyway I read somewhere that you could not bring your characters from DM to CSB in this version so no point in making really strong characters.

This may not be true, I need to do some more reading and see how to start CSB. But I am going to wait until I have some more time before I start. Of course I might just figure out how to transfer my DM characters, or how to use DMute to make identical characters. And then I will load up the game to the worm room, just to make sure everything is working, but that will be it. Probably.

[Ameena]

What version are you playing under? RTC? You can most definitely take your DM chars through to CSB - I think you start up CSB but don't open the dungeon doors at the start - I think you then click on the scroll to bring up the menu thingy (where you can read the Hint Oracle and stuff) and one of the options there is "Create New Adventure" - that's where you transfer in any existing chars.
If you're not playing under RTC then, well, I dunno if any other versions do it differently. I don't see why you wouldn't be able to use your DM chars in CSB though, I mean, that's what you could do in the original version so...

[Trantor]

Congratulations oh_brother! Bring forward your questions about CSB once you are in there, I'm looking forward to them.
You should be able to transfer your heroes into CSB regardless of which clone you are playing. It is certainly possible in CSBWin and RTC, and I cannot imagine that DSB is different. I remember several people having trouble with transferring the characters in CSBWin, and I think I remember you saying you are using that clone. Look in the appropriate forum, there should be some threads that help you. And if all else fails, Paul Stevens will certainly help you.

[oh_brother]

I am playing CSBwin. I read on a post someone saying that you could not bring your characters, but you could use DMute to create identical ones. Now I could have taken that quote completely out of context, and that could have been related to some other version or a mixture of versions. I will do some more reading and playing around and see what I see. If I can take my characters maybe I should go back to DM and train them up a bit more, CSB still frightens me.

[Trantor]

The post you read was probably about an old version of CSBWin, as nobody really uses DMute anymore since CSBuild is there (which is longer than I visit these forums). You should be able to transfer your heroes.
About CSB, yes, it is frightening, but stronger characters won't necessarily help you. The biggest problem in CSB is finding your way around and getting the hang of all the puzzles. Yes, there is the occasional tough fight, but that's not the real problem. If your characters have about 400 HP or more, I'd say toss them in CSB. Plus, you get enormous amounts of experience in CSB, look at this thread for some info how fast you can level there.

[Jan]

Congratulations, Brother, and good luck in CSB. Keep us informed on your progress!

To transfer your characters from DM to CSB in CSBWin engine, do this: copy your savegame (for example csbgame4.dat) from DM folder to CSB folder. Start CSB (csbwin.exe), click on Utility, open the respective savegame (e.g. csbgame4), click on Make new adventure (twice), and save it into one of the save slots (e.g. csbgame1). Then close the game and start it once again, click on Resume, and load the savegame (csbgame1) - and tada, here you go!

[beowuuf]

Exactly. The old complaining about DMute was back when a) CSBwin did not have the DM dungeon, and b) when CSBwin couldn't convert the PC DM saved game to it's own format. Both aren't the case anymore! If you played DM under CSBwin, you can use the new adventure facility as Jan described, just as the designers intended!

[oh_brother]

Thanks guys! The only problem is that now I know it is so easy I might be tempted to do it sooner than I intended, just to take a look...

I hope my characters will stand up to it, no one has 400 HP (my fighters are about 350 or so, magic users a bit lower). I did DM pretty fast, without trying to add to much muscle. Gothmog is lo master wizard, everyone else is just expert in one or two fields.

I will keep you informed of how they do in CSB, I am sure danger will reveal it's face (and countless other body parts) many times.

[Trantor]

It sounds like your characters are roughly as strong as the starting heroes of CSB are. It is certainly possible to venture into CSB with those. When you do that is up to you, but I know couldn't resist if I were in your situation...

[Jan]

I might be tempted to do it sooner than I intended, just to take a look...

Do it! Do it! Do it!

[oh_brother]

But, but my job, my social life, my girlfriend...they will all disappear if I continue on this way.... Well ok, maybe just a quick look.

[Jan]

Muhahahahaha! There's no way back from Chaos' realms! No way back! You take a "quick look" and you'll stay forever! No way back! Muhahahahaharghgrrrrchrrrrm...

[beowuuf]

Lol, back off Jan or I will force you to play KoL and suck up your free time!