Women in games

[cowsmanaut]

The Female characters in games are often a subject of intense conversation, We often get emotional over what we like or do not like when we see them. Some complain there are not enough strong female characters, that the typical trope is large weapon and large breasts and little else.. or the helpless victim..

So..a strong female lead in a game. What defines her to you? A hero...

Do you care if she is beautiful? or would you in fact prefer if she was rather plain? or even not attractive at all in terms of sexual attraction yet have a beautiful soul?

Much the same question goes for her clothing? covering? obscuring her form? practical? sexy?

What would you enjoy to hear her accomplish? save the world/universe? role reversal of saving the BF or prince etc? Finding, saving her child or children? Taking down a criminal organization? seeking vengeance over a wrong doing? or seeking to redeem her soul over a moment in her past?

Are there male characters you would feel could exist with the exact same personality as a well known male character? ie Han Solo as a woman? and is there anything you think would need to change about her to make her work better as a female?

Are there any things you REALLY hate about current portrayals of female characters?

I know this is an intense subject at times, but don't hold back, be honest and rant if you feel the need. just one request, and that is not to negate anyone's opinion in this thread.. there are no wrong answers here, what a person feels is what they feel on this subject. However if someone makes a good point that you agree with, feel free to second their statements. I've asked this already in my FB status and got feedback from people there.. including Beowuuf.. I'm interested in what you gamers have to add Especially you ladies.. Sophia, Ameena?

[oh_brother]

The only thing that annoys me is when female characters look ridiculous enough to break immersion. And this does happen a lot. For example, I remember reading a well-written topic on the Dragon Age Forums about how ridiculous armor is made to look for female characters.

Otherwise, female characters in theory should be no different from male ones...but there are much fewer well-written female heroes in sci-fi/fantasy than male ones. This is not something that I would specifically notice until I thought abut it though.

[Ameena]

I agree that females should be no different from males. The whole armour thing is really silly - the blokes get to wear massive hefty sets of plate armour with (for some reason) ridiculously large shoulder plates, while the females tend to fit fully into the "Chainmail Bikini" trope...and often it's not even made of chainmail . And that's if they're a fighty-type (obviously I'm talking Fantasy here ). If they're not, then they're usually wearing a silly frilly dress or something and exist only to scream and be rescued (actually, that's not specific to Fantasy...). And if they are wearing armour, it's...well, boob-shaped. Which is horribly impractical - if you were to get hit by a sword whilst wearing armour which had a "cleavage", said cleavage would serve to direct the sword's blow right into it, so you'd get stuck in exactly the kind of place the armour is supposed to protect from - proper plate armour should point outwards (as is visible, for example, in the platemail torso piece in DM) so that blows get angled away from your vital areas (I read all about this in an article somewhere online a couple of years ago, when it was linked from another of the forums I visit daily).
Whenever male and female characters are featured, there always seems to be a sex and/or romance thing going on between at least two of them. Females can exist without having to be someone's "love interest", you know! I'd love to see what happens in a story where everyone bonds no more strongly than "Platonic Life Partners". It feels in a lot of modern films that they think they have to force in some kind of romantic subplot (especially in adaptations of books...which actually seems to cover most films, now I think about it) in order to please everyone and get the biggest audience, or whatever.
Really, I think the fact as to whether someone is male or female shouldn't make a difference unless the plot specifially requires that it does (for whatever reason). I think you should be able to describe a character (without mentioning their sex) and a person shouldn't be able to guess what they are, because it doesn't matter.
I've read a few book series in recent years which had female protagonists (off the top of my head, books by Trudi Canavan, Maria V. Snyder, and Alison Croggon), which I like possibly because it feels a bit more unusual for the main character(s) to be female. And they all end up able to stick up for themselves well enough and aren't all about "zomg blokes may read this book, which means I am wearing too many clothes!" and stuff.
A female character should just be...a female character. You know, like a male character, but...female. I wish the people who make games/films with female characters would,for once, stop being quite so obsessed with sex just because "sex sells". Yes, it does...but not all of us are interested in it, so maybe you could focus on the plot of whatever story you're trying to tell without shoving a load of (often barely-concealed) boobs into frame at varying intervals?

[Phoenix]

What do you think of Kate Archer in No One Lives Forever and its sequal A Spy in HARM's Way?

In Homeworld and Homeworld 2 the leader of the fleet is Karen Sjet. In Populous 3 all the tribal shamen are women.

I don't really care if the main character is male or female in a game. I care if the game only has 10-12 true hours of play and replayability. It also helps if the game has a good story.

[Ameena]

I've never heard of Kate Archer, No-One Lives Forever, or A Spy in Harm's Way. I think I've heard of Homeworld but no idea what it's about (some kind of spaceship-flying game, I think?). If by Populous III you mean Populous: the Beginning then yeah, I recall that your Shaman is female. Can't remember specifically what sex the opposing ones were, though. I think the Shaman was the only woman, however, and that all your other people were male.

[Sophia]

I pretty much agree with Ameena. Women in games these days are quite often underrepresented and oversexed.

There may be no wrong answers in this thread, but the way the game industry has been doing it so far is generally what I would call quite wrong.

[Phoenix]

The NOLF series is a skills based FPS set as a 60's era spy parody of James Bond. It's very humerous and a fun couple of games. Kate is a strong female character, and while I admit there's some sexism in the game, she deals with it impressively. The Homeworld series is a RTS set in space.

[quote...]the way the game industry has been doing it so far is generally what I would call quite wrong.[\quote]

I wouldn't say that it is wrong. That's a moral judgement. It's economical inertia that you are truely fighting.
Games have been traditionally based on a male perspective because, while there have been women who have played video games, until now the vast majority of players were male. I'd even argue that the publishers of games being developed even today show a distinct *lack* of balls when it comes to anything non-MMO, FPS, and RTS. The same can be said of Hollywood where we see reboot after reboot. If they made money in the past, they're afraid to do anything different in the future. They therefore wait for the graphics card makers to come out with a faster models, tune their engines to them and slap a higher number on the box. This is the cycle that neesd to be broken in order to see change in the market.

From what I see, the inovation is coming from small independants who later get acquired by EA and the like ( and thus dooming them, or at least their quality). I hate to say it, but if you want things to change you need to be vocal in telling these publishers what you want to see in a game and how they can profit from providing it.

Frankly, I don't think the industry even knows how to approach gaming from a female perspective. We need more female programmers. Look at the credits for your games and you'll find Graphic arts and music have a significant female representation, but not programmers. One other thing that needs to be considered is that, a game that is desired by a female gamer is not necessarily going to be desired by a male gamer. Until there is parity between levels or male gamers and levels of female gamers, the publishers and game companies are going to continue to pander to horny male teens who are easy to divest of their money.

[Sophia]

I didn't say "morally wrong." Even if I had said that, the first post says very specifically not to negate other people's opinions, so don't do that.

But anyway, I agree with your basic point. They sell crap because people keep buying crap.

[terkio]

I pretty much agree with Ameena. Women in games these days are quite often underrepresented and oversexed.

In most games, men are oversexed as well.

[Phoenix]

Sophia,

You have my sincerest appologies. To negate your view was truely never ever my intent nor purpose. I'm afraid it was an unthinking reaction to the word "wrong". Some members of my family are a little overzelous with the use of that word. I also never realized I was doing that. So, again I appologies.

[oh_brother]

Yeah, I think it would be hard to argue against women being underrepresented and oversexed (edit: maybe 'oversexualised' would be more accurate). There are exceptions of course, but as a general observation I think that it is valid.

One up-coming exception features one of the most celebrated female characters in sci-fi, Ellen Ripley. The Alien were some of the few sci-fi movies I am aware of to pass the Bechdel test (except for Alien 3 I presume, but that was for a plot reason).

[Sophia]

Phoenix, it's ok.

If any view of mine comes across as "moralistic" or "overzealous" I think it's because I'm one of those aforementioned female programmers, and I also like games. So I've had some firsthand experience with the subtly misogynistic views and generally toxic mentalities that can discourage female gamers and female programmers, contributing to the problems in the industry. I mean, this happened.

[Ameena]

Wow, wtf, that's ridiculous, lol...I can understand putting in a male/female divide in physical sports, where males tend to be more muscular and stuff and therefore probably better than females by default, as it were...but in a computer game?! Wow...and unless you were sitting in the same room as another player or something, you might not even know what sex they were. It doesn't even matter. Are the blokes worried they might get "beaten by a girl" and want to make themselves look better by only playing amongst themselves?

[Phoenix]

Those views and mentalities are exactly why I'm not involved in any online games.

I can also relate to your experience. My sister just quit a support/programming position where the head programmer (male) would criticise her for not asking questions, and then complain that she was taking too much from him and the other programmers when she did. They never trained her in anything, and she was still able to learn their products and do some fixes. They hired a guy a week after her, and that same head programmer treats him like his brother, answer any questions he has, jokes around with him. He even went so far as to walk him completly through a customer issue, but he often wouldn't give my sister the time of day. You can just imagine how reviews went...

That tournament was pathetic, and I think Ameena summed it up nicely.

[terkio]

Oh well, at work.....I' ve seen all, the good the bad and the ugly, whether guys or gals.

Wether at work, in games, next to it, over the internet, whatever. Isn' t human nature ? from the age, cave men where dragging cave women by the hair carrying a big club in the other hand.

[cowsmanaut]

One of my favorite posts relating to this question on my FB feed was one that suggested that she would like to see a female who was a middle aged anti hero.. You know what, they do this kind of thing in movies, why not in games? are we assuming that the entire audience is more mature in movies?

Anyway, I thought it was interesting and I would like to try it..

On the flip side of things, I can kind of see where the males who contest the idea that anything is wrong with a scantily clad large breasted woman with a big sword. For them it's like taking their playboy and saying.. hmm yes.. there should totally be more penis in here.. yep.. and can't they put on some more clothing? sheesh.. They get these games in part because they want to see a half naked chick bounce around on the screen.. it's their entertainment. However women represent (supposedly) 47% of the market. I say supposedly.. 'cause I got the number from the internet and I don't know how accurate it is.. but it sounds good to me.. it's close to half.. Which means pushing for some practical females would be good.. EXCEPT.. Cosplay.. oh yeah.. that event where a large number of gamer and Anime gals go and dress up like their favorite characters.. wearing.. just like those characters.. next to nothing.. and then complaining bitterly about all the guys gawking at them.. but that's another story.

If they wore nothing but practical clothing, like in "the last of us" .. then cosplay wouldn't be the same.. no redonk costumes that no matter the size of the person in it, will be immediately recognized as THAT CHARACTER! OMG!.. yes, it's a small triangle of yellow cloth with two green triangles.. that's that character from that anime series that I like so much.. ohhhh..

So, yes.. cosplay gals and 53% males want those scantily clad gals in games. So there is a market for it, I have to admit it.. but, the real question.. is how many men would shun a really cool game that had a reasonable and intelligent female as the lead, who wasn't clad in a metal bikini? but rather, practical clothing to her needs as an assassin or bounty hunter or whatever.. heck, Metroid was and is popular, and has a female that spends most of her time in a suit, we at first had no idea contained a female. Obviously they can do it, providing it's a good game. Which is my hope..

there was some flak against UBISoft recently for assassins creed not having female playable characters.. which they said would be too much work.. and it's made it's way like wild fire across the net, suggesting that female gamers also have a lot of clout.. So, I think it's time studios listened a bit more carefully.

So, my point? I'd like to see real human characters.. both male and female.. characters who are unique and have a lot of evident history, and personality. However, I have no problem with a market for the game porn some of the boys want.. big boobs and big guns... oh and alien rabbit zombies for her to kill.. why not

[Gambit37]

As a society I think we're doing a lot better at equal representation. But it's still nowhere near good enough and the games industry is still really backwards about a lot of this. It's the same in the web industry. There's much talk about how sexist and misogynistic the web industry is (and I've seen a lot of really awful behaviour from male so-called "web celebrities" who you'd think would be more enlightened.) It certainly shouldn't be necessary for women to have to point out the imbalances and it's kinda sad that we even need to have these sorts of conversations at all, but from my limited male perspective I do think things are improving.

As for the original question though: what sort of female hero do you want in games? Personally it's not even about a character's gender. I'm equally happy playing as male or female, as long the character's arc makes sense, is well written and doesn't pander to baser sensibilities. But then I'm a 42 year old man with a bit of life experience behind me, and a taste for well written drama focusing on rounded characters. You wouldn't have got the same answer from me 20 years ago.

The recent Tomb Raider reboot was pretty good, in part because it had a reasonably well depicted growth-arc for Lara. (We have to somewhat set aside her murderous excesses with gunplay, as that's a core mechanic proven to make games "fun to play". I don't think it should factor a huge deal in any discussion about Lara's character growth.) There is a good amount of effort made to bring Lara from vulnerable, uncertain teenager to a more mature, focused, confident woman. It's a pretty basic "coming of age" story done so many times already in books and films, that it's not really new. Yet it got a lot of praise in the gaming community for somehow being "bold and progressive." It's kinda weird that it's taken this long to get those sorts of stories in games, but at least it's now happening. Of course, Lara is still an attractive, athletic woman because people still want their avatars to be better versions of themselves. If Lara was ugly and overweight, she would never have got beyond the first game, let alone had a complete reboot nearly twenty years later. One day I hope we can have more diverse people taking these hero roles.

I can't comment on many other games as I'm quite selective these days. Alyx Vance in the Half Life 2 games stands out as another very strong, confident woman. And Valve made great effort not to have her too sexualised. It's a shame in some ways that they never made her a player character though. Perhaps we'll get that in a future game, which would be welcome.

A really great indication that things are improving is Tell Tale Games "The Walking Dead". Episode two has you playing as Clementine: a TEN YEAR OLD GIRL. The games have won countless awards and praise for strong writing and strong characterisation, and the moral choices laid before the player. I think these sorts of interactive stories are doing far more for the progression of games than all the other types of games put together. If a game can make me *want* to play as that ten year old girl, then I think they are doing something right.

I'm not sure I've said anything very useful here but I'm at least encouraged about where things are heading.

[Chaos-Shaman]

in most games that i play where there is a choice between male and female, i tend to pick evenly male and female. i figure there might be a puzzle or situation where they can perform the task better than the counter part. i think the clothes they have for women could be impoved, i am a bit tired of the muscle man look, everything is male.

when creating a game i think it would be a good idea to give male and female champions different abilities, males should be stronger 90% of the time, every once in a while there is a female that's tougher than the males. males should be stronger and be able to wear heavy armor, females tend to listen more, can talk to the locals and make peace, a praise for calm and level headed. females can sway the males into almost anything, create the jealousy that we see still today

would it be so hard to create clothing that are more useful to the correct sex, if the female wears males clothing that it may be too heavy and slow the party down, but if she wears the correct clothing they get a bonus for wearing the correct item. if there is a bad ass sword that is real heavy, females should not be able to swing it as well as the males. i prefer the sexes to have different abilities, like it should be.

males should look manly if they have strength, most women like large muscles, and males like curves. of course not all of them are like that, it's just a general thing.

early games were mostly designed by men, the games often required fighting, men seemed to compete more, but today, women are much more involved and so the gaming industry is changing up.

[cowsmanaut]

I really liked the way the story and characters worked out in the latest Tomb Raider. Despite the people going nuts and saying it was "torture porn" and suggesting all sorts of evil intents of the horrible men who worked on the game. Having actually played the game, I didn't think about it in a "OMG it's a women I have to save her" .. let alone a "Oh look she's getting all brusied and bloody.. that's so HOT!" .. no.. what I felt was that I was her, and if it was a male or a female it didn't matter.. if in that situation I would be just as scared, and would likely react to a lot of it in the same way.. This was a person.. and I greatly respect that team for making that effort, especially considering it's history of focus on short shorts and big breasts.. it's nice to see their mentality shift to making her a real person, with a real struggle..

There are other games out there with female characters you simply don't think about as being female while playing.. Samus in Metroid of course, and Chell in Portal are just two of the more obvious ones. Some give you choice like the female Shephard in Mass Effect where the story elements are much the same no matter if you are male or female.. including sex with other males or females apparently.. so even LGBT is represented here. One of my grads made a game with a strong female protagonist called "Gone Home" and it seems to have done well in the indi market. Knowing that there are many examples out there, helps to offer a reference for doing it, and doing it rather well. At least I would hope. However, one thing I keep seeing is that the majority of examples of well written women, are not player characters, but more of a side kick. The example above of Alyx from HL2, and others like Elena Fisher in Uncharted series is a cocky and somewhat interesting character, and several others in various games. However they never seem to be fully developed because they are secondary to the main character arc. So I'd call that potential lost.

[cowsmanaut]

http://www.polygon.com/2014/7/13/589703 ... er-x-women

[Ameena]

There's also Dragon Age...well I've only played the first one (Origins) so I don't know if it was the same in the sequel (and I've heard there's a new one on the way as well), but you could choose male or female, and the char gen had you able to modify pretty much every aspect of your character's appearance - the size and shape of chin, eyes, cheeks, mouth, everything...so you could make someone really weird-looking if you wanted. It also has the ability to sleep with different party members, like was mentioned with Mass Effect above (but I think that's by Bioware as well, isn't it, so they probably use a similar/the same engine or something). Of the four sleepable-with party members, two are male and two are female, but one of each of those doesn't mind which sex you are (the other two will only go with the opposite sex).
I was gonna mention Chell (Portal) as a female protagonist but I only thought of it yesterday after making my previous post and on logging on today I see Cows has beaten me to it . There are other games where being male or female doesn't matter, like plenty of party-based Fantasy RPGs - the DnD ones like Baldur's Gate and Icewind Dale (though it's possible there may be the occasional NPC who reacts differently to males or females...can't think of a specific example though), and the Might and Magic series (of which I've only played VI-VIII so I don't know if any of the others treat it differently). The Elder Scrolls, too (okay, single player rather than a party), in which you meet plenty of females wearing full platemail and the like. Playing as a female makes no difference...except for one example I can think of in Morrowind where you need to get the councillors of all the Great Houses on your side by doing quests and stuff for them (as part of the whole "save the world from the Big Bad" Main Quest), and one of them hates men. If you're playing as a male, she'll get you to do some kind of quest for her before she'll help you. If you're female, she basically says "lol, the reincarnation of our saviour is a female?! Brilliant!" and you don't have to do anything - she voices her support for you there and then .

[Wizard Zedd]

Women in games have changed a lot over the years, but still quite often their appearance and clothing is meant to be sexy and not practical. As someone else pointed out the armor they wear would not be of much use to them if their cleavage is hanging out. Now that there are more women involved not only in playing the games, but creating them as well I think we will continue to see changes in their appearance and abilities. There will always be the sexy versions of both male and female characters as that what sells and perhaps deep down inside when people are playing a fantasy game, they also want to fantasize that they looked like the characters they are playing with

[Chaos-Shaman]

if their cleavage is hanging out.

some males are taken down by the cleavage, so they're a lot more powerful than just a sword or shield, especially if it gets under the armor and into their pants therefor affecting their minds. it depends on how you look at it. those boobs are more powerful showing a little than hidden behind some 15th century outfit. being a general I would make good use of this. many movies rely on seductive women to overthrow their enemies. women are powerful on their own, they don't have to dress up or act like men, they already have the equipment. it's like the boob is mightier than the sword

[Ameena]

Only if the people you're aiming them at are interested in that sort of thing .

[Phoenix]

Jayden, the main character in Jedi Knight: Jedi Academy can be either male or female and it doesn't change the story as well. The only problem I had with the game was that it was too short.

It seems to me that the majority of over-sexualized portrayals of men and women is in the shooters and the online RPG's. While the number of female gamers is increasing, it's not clear to me that those numbers are in these two
genres as opposed to App-store (Farmville, Minecraft, Angry Birds), Arcade, Puzzle, and Wii style games.

[Chaos-Shaman]

a game with mono sexes doesn't appeal to me as much, although todays world we try to make everyone equal which is certainly not the case, it's the opposite, everyone is different. I prefer it that way. if we're all equal I start to get the feeling that we're a bloody robot, and nothing means much except Yes and No, 1, 0... it's not human. if a female is sexy she has an advantage over the males AND females, if a male is large he has the same over females AND some males. to box everything as equal is far from how nature works, it's not practical. when it comes down to using the FORCE, here is where it is equal, but we all do things differently. they could use it for good or evil. females tend to be more passionate, males more ruthless, powers are the same but actions are different.

[Ameena]

Males and females can cross over in their actions, thoughts, physique, and pretty much every aspect of their physical appearance/build or personalities, though. Just because males are generally larger and tougher while females are generally slimmer and more intellectual doesn't mean that the reverse can never be true. Just because something doesn't happen often doesn't mean it doesn't happen at all. A female might be what other people call "sexy" but have no interest in "using" that particular attribute to her advantage, while a male might be a huge bulky muscular thing who has no interest in HULK-SMASHing everything and is a genuine Gentle Giant who wants to raise puppies or something .

[cowsmanaut]

careful, it's starting to sound like challenging each others opinions and turning into the debate I was trying to avoid. The idea was to expose your individual views, not to provide opposing views directed at other users posts. Challenging others views causes two things. 1. it can incite negative feelings and lead to angry response. 2. those who seek to avoid judgement for their views will not post for fear of negative response.

If someone mentions something in a post that reminds you of another point relating to your previous post, feel free to add it. However if someone expresses a view you do not agree with, please refrain from addressing it. I know it's hard, but that's what I've requested in my first post.. and was repeated by Sophia later in the thread.

[Chaos-Shaman]

not at all cows, just opinions. I think i addressed what Ameena said already. it's not that we can't share it, of course we can. I'm referring to percentage. it would be very difficult to understand a game design where all the men are smaller and the women were big brutes (trek episode, many of them) one thing that wasn't touched on was the power of selection. there is a good reason why men and women like what they like and why the percentage of it is the vast majority, it's called natural selection. take that away and it turns us into a robot as I said above. if a women wants to act or be a man, go ahead, but it does not stand to reason and nature doesn't quite work well that way, especially if we all did it, we'd be extinct, so a little common sense here. I sure am glad I am not a test tube baby made from a man and a women. is there any other way for nature to work? man(women) thinks it is above nature in every way. I like games when they are realistic to nature. there will always be an odd ball, and who knows...maybe the future we will be both, but for now it's not the case. thank god for men and women being different, everyone for that matter.

so my vision is about 10% of women should be able to kick the tar out of a man, and 90% should be able to seduce a man, and vice versa. this is a pretty accurate measurement. i'll be putting that in the dungeon. how many here think a man would be happy being overpowered by a brutish female with huge muscles? probably 1%, how many men would like to be with a soft, caring, loving, nurturing women, probably 99% it all stands to reason. what I'd like to see is men stay home and take care of the castle and the women go out and make the money. women are better at so many things, they have the advantage over men if it were not for their weaker bodies. they seem to live longer, too.

this is an opinion, this is not a challenge. speak your minds people, I won't be offended and I hope were all grown up enough not to be, this is a touchy subject for some. defining a man and women is a big deal to a lot of people.

question... if we had a chance of choosing our sex when born, would we change over to the opposite sex?

my answer is a yes in so many ways, so it's not like I prefer sides here. men are men, are usually bigger, tougher, rougher, meaner, and in control more often, women are all the things that supply this for a man to be a man, that's life. that will be the day when the women is able to do the same thing. I am 100% pro women, they're better in general at most things. one thing I do note about women is they are less competitive, and prefer not to get engulfed in fighting, they are the ones that pick up the pieces after men have done their brutish behavior.

[Wizard Zedd]

I like the fact that when playing a fantasy game that the women can swing that huge sword and hold their own against the male characters. Obviously in real life the percentage of women that could actually do that would be very small, but this is fantasy - right? Nothing wrong with both sexes having equal attributes. Realistically if a man has a smaller than average build he more than likely is not going to be a basketball player, heavy weight boxer or anything that requires size and brute strength. But in a game...why not? Same thing for the women...they should not be left to be only spell casters because of lack of strength, they should be able to do both. As for the attire that each gender wears, it should be practical and fitting to the game being played. Wearing a bikini or a speedo out in the elements battling various enemies/creatures just seems ridiculous to me