Alternate ending

[Mophus_the_Healer]

I heard that if you take the firestaff uncomplete back to the first level lord order will break in and kill your party, is this true? do you get to fight? Can you run? Why would he kill you? He sent you and those guys in there to get rid of chaos in the first place! It don't add up! Can someone please explain what goes on? Does any dialoge takeplace that would clear this up for me?

[Young player]

My theory on this has always been to say that "pure order" is just as "bad" as chaos. In nature, everything needs balance. Hence the "grey" lord - he's the happy-medium between the two extremes. It makes perfect sense to me. In fact, it's the continual theme of balance in the DM world/story that fascinates me so much: You've got the amour of darc and lyte, then there's the magic runes that are associated with the elements and have "good" or "evil" properties, etc.
It's all very Ying and Yang - there's a human side to it too; our lives and thoughts are constantly swaying between opposites (happy, sad, etc.).
That's a bit deep, perhaps... Being a physics major in university, all I can say to justify Lord Order's behavior is that the Universe seeks balance.

[beowuuf]

Yes..pure order is unbending and inflexible, while pure chaos is ever changing and therefore stagnants and never evovles
Michael Moorcock's books are the biggets ones I can think of to use this idea, I don't know if he was derivitive of anyone else in this respect or if he was one of the first to have the Lords of Chaos and Law fighting for dominion, with the balance in between

Back to Librasulus's behaviour - he is unbending and things are done for the 'greater good' without thought - twisting a character's life essense to create new characters more to your liking was his suggestion, and defeating lord chaos is the most important even if it means sending hundreds to their death
Wiping out a few characters who are 'imperfect' to ensure they do not betray him ot lord chaos is nothing...
I always felt he was a little bit to evil in that ending, but still, it just shows the two extremes are the same in the end : )

[Mophu_the_Healer]

So in other words, he lives by the rule frome "The Prince" The end justifies the means. It's a little mideval but that is what this game is based on.I never understood why he killed them just to keep them from betraying him. You tend to run short of henchmen that way don't you?

BTW, where does everyone get the name Librasulus? I have a feeling I missing something.

[Christopher]

Go to Dungeon Master - Manual and read from I to XVIII to learn about Lord Librasulus. Makes for some good reading.

[beowuuf]

He is a high lord though...once he has the firestaff and form, he doens't think he needs henchmen : )

[DR]

***** SPOILER: ALTERNATE ENDING OF DM *****



Yes, when you climb back to the dungeon's entrance with the uncomplete Firestaff (you could never do that with the complete Firestaff as the central stairwell will be closed), you are faced with Lord Order which thanks you and kills you with repeated fireballs.
You cannot fight Lord Order (he is a simple texture on the wall, which is also a fireball generator) and you cannot escape as walls close around you (in fact, you are teleported into a 1x2 closed room which is located very near the dungeon's entrance). I discovered that with the Cartographer, an old DM/CSB dungeon editor for Amiga.

[Paul H]

Guess i'll have to start another game to check this out. I went back to the beginning with the completed firestaff and nothing happened. Probably checks for the incomplete version to be on you.

[Lunever]

Correct, the completed firestaff is the wrong item.
I think, this is the proof that the possibility to take the completed firestaff above lvl 12 is a bug (although a lovely one). Because Librasulus would surely react different to the completed firestaff than to the incompleted one ("...to bad you didn't find out the true secret of the firestaff...")
On the other hand, there wasn't coded anything in the engine for the possibility of laying down the firestaff at Chaos feet either ;-)

[BobR]

"when you climb back to the dungeon's entrance with the uncomplete Firestaff (you could never do that with the complete Firestaff as the central stairwell will be closed)"


Actually, you CAN go back to the Dungeon entrance with the completed Firestaff, and it's NOT a "bug"...

There is an invisible trigger at the door of the room which contains the Power Gem on Level 14. If you step on this trigger while holding the completed Firestaff, then yes... the upper levels of the Dungeon are closed off and you're stuck on Levels 13 and 14.


But- if the Firestaff somehow travels OVER the trigger all by itself (think:Ninja skills), then you can cross the trigger and go pick the Firestaff up and be free to roam the entire Dungeon with it.

Go back and toast some Purple Worms with the Firestaff... it's fun and tasty..!

[PaulH]

Hmmm, sure I have heard that somewhere before ;-)

[ChristopheF]

BobR, are you Bob Retelle who wrote some DM/CSB hintbooks?
I already have scans of The Lost Scrolls of Mount Anaias, and I'd be glad to add the newer release (The Dungeon Master Scrolls) and the CSB hint book.

Thanks,

[BobR]

Hi Paul- just like deja-vu..! :)

I was sure I'd added that to the Second Edition, but reading through the scans here, I see that I just hinted at how to do it, but left it out of the specific answers page.

I think it might have been that getting the Firestaff out of the lower levels wasn't REALLY part of the game, so it really didn't belong as part of answers to the puzzles... dunno for sure- 15 years is a long time..!


Hi Christophe- yup, it's me. I've been lost in the Dungeon for 15 years and just recently surfaced. Next you're going to tell me some actor is President of the USA, right..?

Unfortunately, I don't know if I actually have a copy of the third edition (the "Dungeon Master Scrolls" version). That was produced without much interaction from me, for the release of the IBM version of Dungeon Master.

And unfortunately, we all know how well that went over with the gaming world. (I always wondered what they did with all the copies of that version that were printed up. I know they probably didn't taste too good, and probably wouldn't make very good insulation for the walls of a house..)

I think the only real difference between the 2nd and 3rd editions was the color cover and the better binding. As far as I'm aware, the text should be the same.

I actually might have a copy of the CSB hintbook stashed away somewhere, but of course that one was the "official" FTL hintbook, so I can't release the copyright on it... officially, that is...

(Aha.. I thought it was here already, but I see it's Pat Mullen's version... I never did see his CSB book.. I'll have to take a look..! :)

I'll take a look around and see if I can locate a copy (I never throw anything away... which is why I can barely move in my "computer room".)


It's really amazing to find that over 15 years later, people are still playing Dungeon Master, and finding new ways to extend the life of this wonderful game.

My daughter grew up having friends named Sonja and Tiggy, and Linflas (maybe that's why Legolas is her favorite LOTR character...hmm), and learning to care about what happened to them. It's probably a stretch to say she's a better person for having played Dungeon Master, but you never know...


BobR

[ChristopheF]

Hi Bob,

I first found your name while searching with google in very old posts about dungeon master in various newsgroups.

If you can dig out some oldies about DM/CSB, then I would be glad to publish them on the site. Maybe you still have the first edition of your DM hint book ? (this is the second edition that is already available here).

Thanks,

[BobR]

Actually, the only reason for having a copy of the "first edition" might be for "historical completeness"...

Since I was writing as I was playing, there were several umm.. embarassing... omissions in the first edition... :)

For example, "The Unsolvable Clockwise Room"... it wasn't until AFTER the first edition went to the printer that I finally figured out how to EASILY get through that particular little puzzle. Oops..!

That was the main reason I pushed for the "revised edition"...


Also, in the first edition I'd suggested several ways to re-play the game, like all fighters or just wizards, or even... shocking..! taking only ONE Champion through the game, and asked readers to let me know if anyone managed to survive the Dungeon with only one character.

By the time we released the second edition, I'd finished the game several time with just Tiggy Tamal, and she and I had had a good time doing it... it wasn't quite as impossible as I'd originally feared.

(Also the picture on the back cover had gotten a bit messed up somehow... the Dark Lord had come out looking more like Darth Vader.. oops... again!)


I'll look around through my "archives" though... I might have an original version left. I do know that FTL sent me several copies of the CSB hintbook, so they're probably still around somewhere.

BobR

[ChristopheF]

Great!
This site is just about "historical completeness", so I am happy to add anything about DM :)

[DR]

I've always thought that was the action of the Firestaff enclosing the gem that triggered the sealing of the upper levels.
Well Bob, the one you suggested is a smart trick. You sure are an authority on this field. :)

Christophe, for the sake of "historical completeness", I can try to send you a copy of the old Cartographer software if you want. But not too soon -- I'll have to fetch it among my old Amiga disks, and they are not near me by now.

[DR]

Never mind -- I just noticed that you already have the Cartographer in your Downloads section. Sorry!

[BobR]

DR- I'm sure the original intent of the programmers was to restrict you to the final two levels once you had the Firestaff and Power Gem. It adds the "Yikes, I'm trapped down here now and I know what's facing me back up those stairs with Lord Chaos" feeling to an already overstimulating game...!

If I recall correctly, there's a slight "click" when you step on the invisible trigger while holding the Firestaff/Power Gem which gives it away, IF you're willing to wander around trying to figure out "what the heck just happened..??"

I always wondered if they left that sound in as a clue, just to tempt players who had more time on their hands than they should have, or if they just never thought anyone would notice it

(It's the "Oh God, I just stepped on something and now I don't know what horrible things I may have unleashed around the next corner" kind of "click".)

Of course, if you've used the Altar of VI while battling the Dragon, you've probably been past that spot several times already, and it never clicked before. Now that things are all nice and quiet, and you finally have the Firestaff and Power Gem, now it clicks. Hmmmmm.....


I used to write text adventures, back in the days of steam-powered home computers, so I know how, umm... devious, game programmers can be.

(Did you know that if you give most people a spacesuit, conveniently hung in an obvious location, they won't bother to look in the pockets before or after putting it on..? I had one guy call me long distance all the way from Texas, begging me to tell him where the Phillips screwdriver was hidden. Turned out he'd been carrying it around in his pocket all the time.... :)


BobR

[PicturesInTheDark]

Probably it was one of those hidden features for people with enough time as you said, Bob. Btw, there has been a lot of speculating, decrypting attempts and banging-heads-on-keyboards about a certain scroll in CSB - it is located near the vexirk room at 8(06,35) - same level as the Executioner and the Death knights. Can you shed some light on the point if this was a red herring or has any meaning whatsoever?

Here's the link to the thread... you can see many efforts have been put into this subject:
http://www.dungeon-master.com/forum/vie ... hp?t=22748
If you do know something, I'd rather have a hint than a solution - or at least would want to know that it means nothing, so we can stop worrying about it.

Regards, PitD

[Halk Wonderbarbarian]

If I remember right, the grey lord (or librasulus) actually asks you to go and get the firestaff for him, rather than get the firestaff, firegem, then defeat chaos. So the idea is that basically both of them (librasulus and chaos) want the firestaff for themselves.

[Zyx]

What a nice surprise! Good to see you Halk Wonderbarbarian!

A little correction: it's Lord Order , not lord Grey, who asks you to recover the firestaff.
That is, Lord Chaos and Lord Order want the Firestaff for themselves.

[Simon]

Yes..pure order is unbending and inflexible, while pure chaos is ever changing and therefore stagnants and never evovles
Michael Moorcock's books are the biggets ones I can think of to use this idea, I don't know if he was derivitive of anyone else in this respect or if he was one of the first to have the Lords of Chaos and Law fighting for dominion, with the balance in between

That guy is one hell of a good author. I love his books, and I can definately say they all follow the theme of law/order. And what is at the center of it all other than the Runestaff! I wonder if there's a Runestaff>Firestaff connection!

[Halk Wonderbarbarian]

What a nice surprise! Good to see you Halk Wonderbarbarian!

A little correction: it's Lord Order , not lord Grey, who asks you to recover the firestaff.
That is, Lord Chaos and Lord Order want the Firestaff for themselves.

Hi Zyx, didn't we used to chat on the (very old) first DM messageboard, way way back in the murky past?
Haven't checked out DM web stuff for a long time, seems like theres been a lot of progress, and plenty of new dungeons to wander round!
Very flattered you rememberd me after all this time!
I recognise quite a few other names, i think, from back in the day as well.
Just for a touch of nostalgia I shall re-ask what was the hot question of the day...
Anyone know where I can get Chaos Strikes Back for the PC?
heh heh. Of course, the answer back then was always "no".

[PicturesInTheDark]

Well, the answer now is yes. Paul Stevens did a tremendous job converting and re-qriting the Atari code including an editor with very nice functionality beyond the limits of others. The last full version is called "CSBexe96.rar" and can be found at
http://www.dianneandpaul.net/CSBwin/. After downloading it, replace the exe file by another download called "CSBwin96o.rar", which contains the latest exe file and release notes only. The compliant editor in the latest version is called "CSBuild806.rar" and can also be found there.

Good hunting!

Regards, PitD

[beowuuf]

LOl, yup, 'can you play CSB on the PC' is so yesterday, the biggest asked quetsion now is probably 'how do I get DM2 to work on my machine' : )

[Lunever]

And of course don't forget the DM-CSB-all-inclusive version RTC at www.ragingmole.com